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Leaving China

persuasion.community

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Re: Leaving China

#71

Post by WheatMillington »

nonethewiser wrote: post #55
hayst4ck wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an expat, but I was considering spending several months in China. After Hong Kong, there was a strong message of "Americans caused this," likewise after covid there was a strong message of "this didn't start in China, this actually started in America." It wasn't just a message of "America is our enemy," but looking at how the People in Hong Kong were robbed of due process from an impartial justice system it…

> Another woman I met on a plane said that the people who ran the school she taught at threatened to revoke her visa trapping her in China. She said she was leaving for "vacation" but was not going to go back. She was also visibly shaken. I know someone working as an architect in China and apparently his company holds onto his college degree. Hes concerned he won’t get it back if he doesn’t remain on good terms. I wa…

This reads like it was written by someone cosplaying as an adult. A college degree is not an irreplaceable piece of paper to be guarded with your life - otherwise it would live in a vault somewhere. You can trivially have the certificate reprinted.

Re: Leaving China

#72

Post by elbigbad »

nonethewiser wrote: post #52
hayst4ck wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an expat, but I was considering spending several months in China. After Hong Kong, there was a strong message of "Americans caused this," likewise after covid there was a strong message of "this didn't start in China, this actually started in America." It wasn't just a message of "America is our enemy," but looking at how the People in Hong Kong were robbed of due process from an impartial justice system it…

> "this didn't start in China, this actually started in America." How did the reasoning work here? Not sure if this speaks to poor education, propaganda, something else, or all of the above.

Probably the same way conservative media portrays US joblessness as starting from other countries and their immigrants, and it’s clear that people who consume that media really buy into that way of thinking. People in echo chambers are particularly vulnerable to this sort of propaganda I expect.

Re: Leaving China

#73

Post by FpUser »

tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

>"I understand that it might come at the cost of some personal freedom but I'm willing to pay that price for a great society in return."

Fuck that. Our freedoms are already getting screwed by various acts of governments. Personal freedom is the most valuable thing for me.

Re: Leaving China

#74

Post by paxys »

TL;DR

2000 – The government is kidnapping people from their beds in the middle of the night but that's a minor inconvenience. I'll just shut up and enjoy the economic gains. China is the best!

2022 – I can't believe the government is coming for my money and lifestyle. The tyranny was only supposed to affect the other people.

Re: Leaving China

#75

Post by jzb »

tiny_ta wrote: post #13

It's so interesting to read this perspective since it drives home "the grass is always greener.." for me. I've lived a pretty charmed life in the US for the past few years (like the majority of HN, I imagine) but I find myself longing to move to a country with dense cities, affordable housing in the city center, great public infrastructure and a modicum of agreement among the citizens and China fits the bill pretty g…

Serious question, if you have to sacrifice personal freedom, what does the great society look like you are willing to sacrifice it for? What freedoms are you willing to give up for what societal benefit?

I’m genuinely curious because every person defines personal freedom differently. And great society is very subjective.

Re: Leaving China

#76

Post by simonh »

FpUser wrote: post #70
ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

Things do change over the time. And if you are so willing to look back I am sure you'll find enough trash in a history of your own country.

They do change, in mainland China they have devolved considerably under Xi. I have Family over there, and a lot of the optimism of a decade ago was already being squeezed out of the country before the pandemic.

Re: Leaving China

#77

Post by _-david-_ »

onos wrote: post #60
tomohelix wrote: post #4

What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful. The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be found. There will be a huge social disrupti…

I don’t believe the average western person would care at all if they could afford fewer cheap products. Corporate profits would certainly go down.

>I don’t believe the average western person would care at all if they could afford fewer cheap products

I don't think this is the case. The average person wants a lot of things for cheap. Also, more expensive items like computers and phones would increase in price. People like having the newest phones, but might be priced out of it if it increased.

Re: Leaving China

#78

Post by tomohelix »

croutonwagon wrote: post #29
tomohelix wrote: post #4

What I find ironic is that as businesses leave China, they move into the exact same type of culture in Vietnam and India. Vietnam is basically a mini China and India is trending towards the same authoritarian regime that most people find distasteful. The entire western world is so addicted to cheap labor I don't know what would happen when there is no more cheap labor to be found. There will be a huge social disrupti…

Having traveled to Vietnam AND being a bit of a history buff, especially on US war history (and theres a “bit” of an intersection there). Can you explain how? They are a communist government sure and to get fairly large as a private company you do have to cut the government in (ie: Vin company, Viettel, Sunworld etc) but they do appear to be much less repressive and much more open than say a china. Especially sociall…

I think for Vietnam, it is more that they couldn't afford to be repressive, not that they don't want to.

They are still relatively underdeveloped. Cracking down too hard on dissidents would hurt their FDI from places like the US. Not to mention they probably don't have the money and manpower to spare on that. China was the same when they were at the stage Vietnam is in now. And it is very likely Vietnam will do what China is doing now soon enough.

I have been to Vietnam too and I think for the time I stayed there, I got to experience a pretty authentic feel for their political and cultural systems. And all it reminds me of is China, a decade or two ago.

Re: Leaving China

#80

Post by ren_engineer »

FpUser wrote: post #70
ren_engineer wrote: post #64

>But in order to live everyday life, most people living in China find it necessary to turn a blind eye until it affects them directly. That became impossible during the Covid-19 pandemic, when the force of China’s technocracy was on full display it's amazing how people were able to delude themselves for so long, Tiananmen should have been enough to make people and governments realize things weren't going to change

Things do change over the time. And if you are so willing to look back I am sure you'll find enough trash in a history of your own country.

I mean change in the talking point at the time that if we just kept throwing money at China they'd magically become a democracy. As long as the CCP is in charge that's not happening and should have been clear based off Tiananmen. Allowing them into the WTO and continuing to trade with them just made their power stronger. Going to be seen as a huge blunder historically
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