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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#151
post #88

As someone who has worked two of the most intensive blue collar jobs, people should be wary of romanticizing blue collar work. Blue collar workers are expected to really work at their jobs. White collar workers can chill if there is no work to be done, or be sent home early with pay, or take a relaxation day and just browse the internet and listen to podcasts. They have perks, you see white collar workers leaving wor…

That said, it's not uncommon to be able to find good blue collar jobs with good employers.

A friend of mine worked a really shitty job for a year, to finally find a much more cushy job, but it's graveyard shift. Eventually they'll put him on day shift. But in the mean time he's earning for his family, he doesn't have to do much work, and he's studying for a degree at night.

If you pick the right field, you have the right skills, and are in a hot market, trades can be very lucrative and you can be drowning in contacts. For someone who wants to be their own boss it can be very rewarding.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#153
Over here in Germany they have well-established apprenticeship programs for many more jobs than in the US. There are apprenticeships for software developers, for bankers, for "Bürokauffrau/Bürokaufmanm" (office clerks/administrators), for media work, for all sorts of medical jobs, and so on. You name it, and there is probably an "Ausbildung" (apprenticeship) for it here. The apprenticeship programs are still somewhat not as "prestigious" as going to university, but they will get you in the door at a company for that job.

Many people even combine the two, opting to do an apprenticeship and follow it up with studies, or vice-versa, or do both at the same time.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#154

First of all, I'm optimistic about this. Apprenticeships could even trickle up. Here's what I mean. The article talks about an apprenticeship in the insurance industry where you're taking college classes while working a day job. This could expand into other areas, such as junior engineers / designers / programmers. It might not replace college, but turn college into something that blends with job training in a more e…

Insurance is the only profession I know of where there are many senior leaders in their forties without a degree.

Traditionally, how did they get in? Did they come up through sales, or through family businesses?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#155

Good. Needs to happen. Was talking to our HVAC repair dude. He makes as much as I do with a high school education and two years of trade school. Adjusting for age, he definitely makes more than I did at 34. No reason to send kids who want to work with their hands to four year colleges and saddle them with 100k in debt when they can work through a trade school, be done at 20, and have no student loan debt.

I assume you work in software.

How hard does the HVAC guy work? I wager if you compared wages earned per hour worked (not just employed), you come out ahead. You probably beat doctors and lawyers, too.

Large salaries mean nothing if you don’t account for how much effort is expended to earn the money.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#156

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

If a person is smart enough to receive it

And this can't be the case, at least not in the sense that colleges can offer education at the caliber they once were when only educating 25-30% of the population 70+ years ago. Academic ability, like most other traits, exists on something close to a normal distribution. Not to mention the failings of the secondary education system feeding into it.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to say this but you were probably an unfortunate bait for a labor certification of an existing employee on an h1b visa. That is generally the only reason companies will stick to the bscs requirement. Normally if you have requisite experience the degree - especially bscs is not needed.

Eh, there is plenty of h1b nonsense, but asking for a degree is hardly unusual. Just like quizzing people about sorting algorithms. People love to imagine the core of their job is difficult, intellectual problems that need super-smart people - so they don't have to admit the main challenge is maintaining motivation in the face of corporate BS like SOC2.

Asking about a degree isn't the same as requiring one for the role.

Every employer will ask, but at this point for software devs, it's only ever used as an excuse to disqualify someone for other reasons (e.g. h1b stuff) if they don't have it.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#158

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

I'd also add 4) A social / networking experience. As an adult, rarely will you interact so often with so many people of your age. 5. A signaling mechanism. I have X credentials so give me job Y. This is far from ideal because the signal can be noisy. But it is a data point. It's similar to how physics PhD's are targeted for quant finance roles - they've signaled they can solve hard problems!

4) is the main thing for 4 year, in person colleges, I think. You can learn anything online. Credentials are nice but you can get pretty good credentials doing 2 years at a community college and finishing up at a state university. But meeting a bunch of ambitious people your age at the same point in their career is pretty valuable I think. At least it is an opportunity to roll the dice on meeting your startup crew.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#159
I'd break college programs down into undergraduate and graduate divisions, and divide schools up based on admission price tag. Some issues:

1. The more expensive the school, the more likely it is to be something like a British public school for the inherited wealth class. Interestingly graduate programs are often somewhat neglected at such institutions, and they're not generally great research centers. Basically it's about hobnobbing so you can get a job at your pal's parent's hedge fund or whatever. (#2 on your list)

2. The cutting-edge research universities have inverted that model. Undergraduates are packed into huge auditoriums and taught by adjunct professors with the help of overworked grad students whose professors can't afford to pay them as a lab tech / research assistant. Here it's all about getting the big grant and publishing new research. Students who can negotiate this system successfully can get excellent technical education and experience at the upper-level undergrad / grad student level in fields like CS, biotech, engineering etc.(BS/MS). That's #1 on your list.

3. There's another category of student that benefits from the cheaper state schools, and that's due to high schools in the USA being woefully poor at providing a basic education. These schools - community colleges and state schools - generally have a two-year progam that does little more than revisit material that high schools failed to teach, like reading and algebra and introductory calculus and programming. The fact this is needed just reflects the poor quality of K-12 in so many places.

The little secret that the big research universities don't want people to realize is that you can often get a better quality of instruction at most community colleges, due to small class sizes etc., then for the first two years at a big famous school. Hence it's wiser to do that and, assuming good grades, transfer in at the upper undergrad level for the courses and research lab access that small schools lack.

I don't really know of any apprenticeship program that could give one the same level of experience with cutting-edge technology as something like an MS program in a quality university research program could. And for that you're going to need a college degree first, ideally avoiding massive debt along the way.

As far as the struggle for professorships in the corporatized academic system, that's a complete political-bureaucratic game of chairs that doesn't really reward brilliance so much as it does Machiavellian capabilities. Trofim Lysenko would have fit right in to today's system. Try to avoid ending up in the Lysenko lab, whatever you do.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#160
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post makes me consider what other avenues to achieve the growth of intellectual souls and exposure to depth of thought could exist other than paid-for highly-structured institutions. I think people wax poetically about their own experiences without really considering the experiences of others. We've had free public libraries for centuries now. We've had a pretty open Internet for decades. There is literally noth…

> We've had free public libraries for centuries now. Not even a century and a half, really. The first Carnegie library was opened in 1883, for example.

I mean, pedantry aside this is such an easy question that even Google can find a result. [1]

According to that link: The Darby Free Library in Darby, Pennsylvania, is “America’s oldest public library, in continuous service since 1743.”

But really, without going too off topic, why would you even bother to try to correct a statement that is used for effect? Are you trying to suggest that 150 years vs "centuries" is a relevant distinction for a point made about college-aged knowledge seekers? Are you interested in showing you have the trivial fact on hand for when the first Carnegie library was formed?

I'm open to being corrected but sometimes I just have to shake my head. Not only was your attempt to correct irrelevant, it is factually off base.

1. https://www.sturgislibrary.org/oldest-library/

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