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Why do older grad students become bitter?

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Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#71

Post by lapcat »

MereInterest wrote: post #68
lapcat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, as long as you're willing to admit by this same logic that basically every billionaire in the world made a series of bad decisions that don't deserve to be celebrated. How do you know in advance, as a 20something, that you're doctor material, or lawyer material, until you actually go through med school or law school? What exactly is the "safe" route in life, Nostradamus?

First, I don't celebrate billionaires for their survivorship bias. Second, there isn't a safe route, but we as society can avoid putting up additional hazards. As a 20-something, without going through med school or law school, you don't know if it's something you want to do. As a society, we want this hypothetical 20-something to go to med school or law school to find out. Therefore, we should make failure be an acce…

> there isn't a safe route

That's my point. You want to talk about personal "bad decisions", but what's a "good decision" and why, given that all of the lucrative careers require a series of risks in order to enter the field and become successful in it?

> we as society can avoid putting up additional hazards

Agreed, but I wasn't arguing against that, just against the criticism of individuals for having personal ambition and taking risks.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#72

Post by lapcat »

maegul wrote: post #53

Another factor I’ve wondered in both myself and others: those who choose to be grad students often do so because of irrational unresolved issues or dissatisfactions with life. Grad work doesn’t help with these issues at all, only adds more problems or compounds them, and leaves you with a good amount of bitterness that you might not even understand. Increased age or progress increases the chance that these unresolved…

> those who choose to be grad students often do so because of irrational unresolved issues or dissatisfactions with life

Citation very much needed.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#73

Post by alwayslikethis »

colonelpopcorn wrote: post #50
MereInterest wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society, we have a third option: fund education as a public good.

I feel like the third option should be: not conflating credentials with education or ability. Education is a funded public good, I won't say well funded, but funded nonetheless. Credentials are not a well funded public good, and shouldn't be in my opinion.

Not all education should be funded. Some subjects are in more demand, results in more jobs, and produce greater benefit to society. Government also should not offer loans, but rather grants to make education affordable.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#74

Post by drewcoo »

colonelpopcorn wrote: post #50
MereInterest wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society, we have a third option: fund education as a public good.

I feel like the third option should be: not conflating credentials with education or ability. Education is a funded public good, I won't say well funded, but funded nonetheless. Credentials are not a well funded public good, and shouldn't be in my opinion.

Credentials should actually be something we should want to protect the general public.

Without credentials, how are non-experts able to tell real experts from charlatans?

I realize we don't seem to mind that in software, but software is still a new field, so even though it's known to have a lot of shoddy snake oil peddlers, people still put up with the situation. For now.

But for the most part, when any of use needs to hire an expert, if there were no credentials, what would we do? Count on our ability to somehow suss out expertise without actually having anything resembling expertise in the field? Word of mouth and hope for the best? Set a war chest aside for the inevitable lengthy lawsuits because surely selection will fail often?

I have friends that insist that acupuncture and chiro-mancy are medicine and not magic. But when I visit a physician, I like to know they're credentialed and have passed through accredited institutions.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#75

Post by [deleted] »

lapcat wrote: post #71
MereInterest wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I don't celebrate billionaires for their survivorship bias. Second, there isn't a safe route, but we as society can avoid putting up additional hazards. As a 20-something, without going through med school or law school, you don't know if it's something you want to do. As a society, we want this hypothetical 20-something to go to med school or law school to find out. Therefore, we should make failure be an acce…

> there isn't a safe route That's my point. You want to talk about personal "bad decisions", but what's a "good decision" and why, given that all of the lucrative careers require a series of risks in order to enter the field and become successful in it? > we as society can avoid putting up additional hazards Agreed, but I wasn't arguing against that, just against the criticism of individuals for having personal ambit…

[deleted]

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#76

Post by nebulousthree »

colonelpopcorn wrote: post #50
MereInterest wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society, we have a third option: fund education as a public good.

I feel like the third option should be: not conflating credentials with education or ability. Education is a funded public good, I won't say well funded, but funded nonetheless. Credentials are not a well funded public good, and shouldn't be in my opinion.

Education wasn't always solely or even mainly about earning credentials. It's only when industry offset their responsibilities to train new employees to universities (and thus the taxpayer in publicly funded education), that suddenly education became entirely about getting a corresponding job and getting a piece of paper.

If you think of education as a public utility, something that unequivocally raises the standard of living, then it becomes about forming a population of educated and informed citizens who can, amongst other things, participate in democracy a lot more effectively.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#77

Post by red-iron-pine »

colonelpopcorn wrote: post #50
MereInterest wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society, we have a third option: fund education as a public good.

I feel like the third option should be: not conflating credentials with education or ability. Education is a funded public good, I won't say well funded, but funded nonetheless. Credentials are not a well funded public good, and shouldn't be in my opinion.

Then what is the point of credentials? How do we prove a level of competency without having to test every single person, in depth, every single interview?

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#78

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #75
lapcat wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there isn't a safe route That's my point. You want to talk about personal "bad decisions", but what's a "good decision" and why, given that all of the lucrative careers require a series of risks in order to enter the field and become successful in it? > we as society can avoid putting up additional hazards Agreed, but I wasn't arguing against that, just against the criticism of individuals for having personal ambit…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#79

Post by michaelt »

rwalle wrote: post #2

> A decent STEM PhD student stipend in the US is about $40k. I don't know where that number comes from. In most universities you'd be looking at $20k-lower 30k, sometimes less. In fact, in public schools, salaries for teaching assistants/research assistants are public data and people can look them up.

Yes - here in the UK a typical STEM PhD stipend is £17,668 [1] or $21,400

It's tax-free, and you don't have to pay any tuition fees - but it's nowhere near $40k.

[1] https://www.ukri.org/what-we-offer/developing-people-and-ski...

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#80

Post by michaelt »

mkl95 wrote: post #40

> When I entered grad school, I noticed that the older grad students just seemed... oddly bitter? The 6th years were living in a different world from us 1st years > You may need to move on for the sake of your life, but your experiments aren't working and the committee says you need one more paper to graduate. It's really hard to balance this, especially combined with the lack of money. > Only 15% of postdocs end up…

> From an engineer's point of view, working for 6 years at some organization with no significant professional growth sounds dystopian.

To be fair, they do give you a masters degree after 2 years and a doctorate after 6, and expect you to spend loads of your time developing your knowledge.

That's some of the most measurable and transferable professional development out there. The problem is you get paid a pittance.

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