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Why do older grad students become bitter?

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Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#61

Post by MereInterest »

lapcat wrote: post #38
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or the academic pyramid becomes populated with only those with burnable wealth. yes, but it doesn't reasonable that people should ruin themselves out of - what? Some patriotic duty to keep American schools egalitarian? the people taking risk on loans are making a bad decision for themselves, the academic pyramid population problem is a bad decision for society.

> the people taking risk on loans are making a bad decision for themselves Everyone in the world takes risks. Can you say it was a bad decision for the people who took the risk, took out loans, and eventually became tenured professors? Of course in retrospect it feels like a bad decision for those who didn't become tenure track professors, but nobody knows in advance who will beat the odds and who won't.

> Can you say it was a bad decision for the people who took the risk, took out loans, and eventually became tenured professors?

Yes. A decision can only be evaluated using what is known at the time, not what is later known in hindsight. Betting on an inside straight in poker is a bad bet, even if in one particular instance you got the card needed.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#62

Post by lapcat »

bioemerl wrote: post #55
VLM wrote: post #18

I think the psychological aspect of first failure and injustice is rough on grad students. Hypercompetitive to get into a good enough BS program to get into a MS program yet unlike post-BS tracks like med school, 98% aren't getting that job in academia and will fail out. Its a pyramid with a very pointy top, much like college football usually doesn't lead to a NFL career. Meanwhile the "failures" who were not smart e…

> now where's my reward I was promised?" These people deserve more without question, but at the end of the day if this is their reaction they didn't look forward far enough. It's a slightly less bad decision than people who decide to try to become professional athletes. You're subjecting yourself to getting treated like absolute shit for a half a chance at a mediocre job. I do not understand why anyone would ever cho…

> It's a slightly less bad decision than people who decide to try to become professional athletes.

Tell that to the professional athletes.

> at least one at any institution that has this sort of crazy imbalances of applicants and positions

Every institution has that imbalance. That's not particularly relevant, because grad students don't typically get jobs at their alma mater.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#63

Post by lapcat »

MereInterest wrote: post #61
lapcat wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people taking risk on loans are making a bad decision for themselves Everyone in the world takes risks. Can you say it was a bad decision for the people who took the risk, took out loans, and eventually became tenured professors? Of course in retrospect it feels like a bad decision for those who didn't become tenure track professors, but nobody knows in advance who will beat the odds and who won't.

> Can you say it was a bad decision for the people who took the risk, took out loans, and eventually became tenured professors? Yes. A decision can only be evaluated using what is known at the time, not what is later known in hindsight. Betting on an inside straight in poker is a bad bet, even if in one particular instance you got the card needed.

Ok, as long as you're willing to admit by this same logic that basically every billionaire in the world made a series of bad decisions that don't deserve to be celebrated.

How do you know in advance, as a 20something, that you're doctor material, or lawyer material, until you actually go through med school or law school?

What exactly is the "safe" route in life, Nostradamus?

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#64

Post by DeathArrow »

lapcat wrote: post #59
mecsred wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is one of the reasons sane people suggest not getting a philosophy degree.

But nobody pursues a philosophy degree for the money. It's a question of personal values and what one wants out of life. Many people of a philosophical predilection would find it unfulfilling, a waste, "insane", to devote themselves to wealth maximization.

>It's a question of personal values and what one wants out of life. Many people of a philosophical predilection would find it unfulfilling, a waste, "insane", to devote themselves to wealth maximization.

Arguably, If your goal in life is to be happy, from a philosophical perspective, maximizing wealth is a valid way to do it.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#65

Post by DeathArrow »

memen wrote: post #57
mecsred wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is one of the reasons sane people suggest not getting a philosophy degree.

One studies because of curiosity, not because of money.

One has to eat. Curiosity and money can go hand in hand. I've learned things out of curiosity but those things helped me build a career, have an income, feed me and my children. There's nothing bad in gaining money.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#66

Post by goethes_kind »

There is one aspect that was not touched on, which I find to be quite cruel to be honest. There is an obsession with forcing academics to move around. If you do your undergrad in one university, then you should pack your bags and move to another country to do your Ph.d at another university and then do it again for all your Post. docs. (I am not sure if this is more of an EU thing or if it is a worldwide phenomenon).

Abandoning your entire life and moving to another country is hard and it takes a huge toll on your mental well being, especially as you start approaching your 30s. And it just plain makes life harder, when the circumstances are hard enough already. And all of this for what specific benefit exactly? This aspect is so ingrained that, for example I see job ads, where they say, "to be eligible you should not have spent the last x years studying or working in this country". In fact let me quote:

• Must not have resided or carried out their main activity (work, studies, etc.) in Germany for more than 1 year out of the last 3 years. This is in line with standard mobility criteria for a standard Doctoral Training Network.

And then a couple of lines below they boast about a family-friendly environment, and how they prioritize disadvantaged individuals, without a hint of irony. It is neither family-friendly nor a suitable position for disadvantaged individuals if you force them to move away from their support networks to a foreign country.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#67

Post by orff »

bowsamic wrote: post #24
orff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me guess - it's in Germany.

Correct

I do understand how do you feel. I quit my PhD, it was crazy.

Then the life was better, having normal jobs. Now I have another very difficult situation in life and there is no chance to get professional help. At least some friends are helping.

If you are from south Germany, let me know, we can grab a beer and talk. The life will be better again!

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#68

Post by MereInterest »

lapcat wrote: post #63
MereInterest wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you say it was a bad decision for the people who took the risk, took out loans, and eventually became tenured professors? Yes. A decision can only be evaluated using what is known at the time, not what is later known in hindsight. Betting on an inside straight in poker is a bad bet, even if in one particular instance you got the card needed.

Ok, as long as you're willing to admit by this same logic that basically every billionaire in the world made a series of bad decisions that don't deserve to be celebrated. How do you know in advance, as a 20something, that you're doctor material, or lawyer material, until you actually go through med school or law school? What exactly is the "safe" route in life, Nostradamus?

First, I don't celebrate billionaires for their survivorship bias. Second, there isn't a safe route, but we as society can avoid putting up additional hazards.

As a 20-something, without going through med school or law school, you don't know if it's something you want to do. As a society, we want this hypothetical 20-something to go to med school or law school to find out. Therefore, we should make failure be an acceptable outcome, minimizing the risk for the potential student. In this case, that means publicly funding their education, such that dropping out doesn't place the student with a massive debt.

-------

For context on the PhD probabilities, a professor will typically be supervising 3-4 students at any given time. A professor's career is typically about 30-40 years, and the duration of a PhD program is about 4-6 years. Therefore, over the course of a professor's career, they will supervise around 25-ish freshly minted PhDs. With an average 2% annual population growth, the population will roughly double over that time period.

So on average, a professor will produce about 25 PhDs, after which there will be one empty position due to the professor retiring, and one new position due to a larger need for professors. Two spots for 25 people is not a good bet, if you do a PhD program will the goal of becoming a professor.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#69

Post by lapcat »

DeathArrow wrote: post #65
memen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One studies because of curiosity, not because of money.

One has to eat. Curiosity and money can go hand in hand. I've learned things out of curiosity but those things helped me build a career, have an income, feed me and my children. There's nothing bad in gaining money.

> One has to eat.

Philosophy grads are eating. I'm about to eat breakfast. Let's not exaggerate the situation. The issue here isn't that grad students are starving or homeless.

Re: Why do older grad students become bitter?

#70

Post by signaru »

bioemerl wrote: post #55
VLM wrote: post #18

I think the psychological aspect of first failure and injustice is rough on grad students. Hypercompetitive to get into a good enough BS program to get into a MS program yet unlike post-BS tracks like med school, 98% aren't getting that job in academia and will fail out. Its a pyramid with a very pointy top, much like college football usually doesn't lead to a NFL career. Meanwhile the "failures" who were not smart e…

> now where's my reward I was promised?" These people deserve more without question, but at the end of the day if this is their reaction they didn't look forward far enough. It's a slightly less bad decision than people who decide to try to become professional athletes. You're subjecting yourself to getting treated like absolute shit for a half a chance at a mediocre job. I do not understand why anyone would ever cho…

> I do not understand why anyone would ever choose to be an acedemic,...

When you're young and don't know enough it's easy to look up to the "smartest" people you know at the time, which are often your teachers and other university celebrities. And while at college, if you don't have any serious plans, masters and so forth seems like easy options going forward. Your university mentors will even make you believe it is a good choice. Been there myself. I regret it. Surrounded by academics while my friends and relatives are just "normal", I had a very one-sided worldview.

On the bright side, I think more are quitting the academe recently, realizing it is not worth it.

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