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The Great Illyrian Revolt

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41–50 of 64 posts

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#41
post #23

>The Romans, aside from committing atrocities I see this in a lot of historical Wikipedia articles now. I'm not sure what to think of it. It feels like a modern tag added to articles that feels somewhat out of place. My understanding that at the time, and most of history war, what we think of as war crimes were a standard practice of war. It seems strange to me to tag the end of an article about a large scale war and…

As these events occurred more than a millennia prior to the Geneva conventions which defined war crimes, I would strongly argue that these acts did not constitute war crimes at the time and that comment is simply misplaced.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macedonia is particularly egregious because its genesis as an ethnic group is still within living memory and would make as much sense as Pennsylvanians declaring themselves the last true Vikings, erecting statues with horned helmets and talking about retaking their true homelands. All other major ethnic groups in the Balkans have at least two or more generations from their creation, either synthetic or organic, and a…

I don't understand this comment about Macedonians. They seem like a pretty distinct ethnic group, as evidenced by the unique language and culture. That was not just created out of thin air in any kind of recent time. Are people upset about them adopting the name?

> Are people upset about them adopting the name?

Yes. Oh yes are many Greeks peeved about the name of Macedonia, claiming that it means the country now called North Macedonia has designs on the Macedonia region of Greece.

Modern Macedonians are Slavic-speaking people, who moved into the region ~1500 years ago. Ancient Macedonians (whose most famous person was Alexander the Great) were a Greek-speaking people.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#43
post #23

>The Romans, aside from committing atrocities I see this in a lot of historical Wikipedia articles now. I'm not sure what to think of it. It feels like a modern tag added to articles that feels somewhat out of place. My understanding that at the time, and most of history war, what we think of as war crimes were a standard practice of war. It seems strange to me to tag the end of an article about a large scale war and…

As these events occurred more than a millennia prior to the Geneva conventions which defined war crimes, I would strongly argue that these acts did not constitute war crimes at the time and that comment is simply misplaced.

War crimes were defined before the Geneva conventions, specifically the Hague Conventions 50 years earlier.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but in a couple of hundred years it will feel normal. This has happened many times before.

Yes, but this didn't happen centuries ago, this happened in the 1960s to 1990s.

The Macedonian culture seems to me to have become distinct from Serbian and Bulgarian cultures by around WW1 at the latest. At the very least, all of the ethnographers being used to divvy up the Balkans recognized them as a distinct ethnicity at that time.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this comment about Macedonians. They seem like a pretty distinct ethnic group, as evidenced by the unique language and culture. That was not just created out of thin air in any kind of recent time. Are people upset about them adopting the name?

> Are people upset about them adopting the name? Yes. Macedonians of antiquity were Greek. "Northern Macedonians" are Slavic. Greeks are very protective of their identity.

People who have not much else, are generally very protective of their identity.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#46
Here's a really interesting video on some problems the Romans had in this exact spot a few decades earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HURI6EHXybc

If memory serves it explains that Octavian was pretty ineffective here, but gets all this glory and name recognition while Agrippa did all the dirty work.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As these events occurred more than a millennia prior to the Geneva conventions which defined war crimes, I would strongly argue that these acts did not constitute war crimes at the time and that comment is simply misplaced.

War crimes were defined before the Geneva conventions, specifically the Hague Conventions 50 years earlier.

Fair enough. Still not terribly relevant in the context of the Roman Empire.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#48

Welcome to the Balkans, where this kind of ancient stuff is used as arguments in historical disputes for modern nation building and pride. Whether your genes have traces from the Illyrian, Thracian, Dalmatian, Greek, Slavic or proto-Bulgarian tribes, is a major force in international relations on that peninsula.

i used to do some work for the french-german youth office where french and german students would meet over activities and translated discussions during a week; since the office had too much money there would sometimes be further partner countries invited. so here we were once, a french-german team trying to solve a conflict between 1990-born hungarians and romanians “but you don’t understand” one told me, “we were at war against each other up until 90 years ago”

right, ever heard of wwii?

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#49
post #23

>The Romans, aside from committing atrocities I see this in a lot of historical Wikipedia articles now. I'm not sure what to think of it. It feels like a modern tag added to articles that feels somewhat out of place. My understanding that at the time, and most of history war, what we think of as war crimes were a standard practice of war. It seems strange to me to tag the end of an article about a large scale war and…

> I see this in a lot of historical Wikipedia articles now. I'm not sure what to think of it. It feels like a modern tag added to articles that feels somewhat out of place. > My understanding that at the time, and most of history war, what we think of as war crimes were a standard practice of war.

Nah. They werent - Romans were famous for being particularly brutal even in their time. Which was one of the reasons for their easier conquest against weaker targets. Much better to become a Roman province or client state than get yourself conquered a few years later, half of your population enslaved and exported and the other half sent to work in the local mines.

Solely what Julius Caesar did in Gaul would give shivers to even his contemporaries. That's why he so slyly wrote the history of his own Gallic conquest himself - to shape the narrative.

There were other societies in history that employed brutal 'conqueror's rights' formats, like Assyrians, and after Assyrians this became kind of standard practice in Near East. But even Assyrians were not as brutal as Romans, who even discarded their unwanted babies into a trash pile outside their cities.

> It seems strange to me to tag the end of an article about a large scale war and saying "hey this one group committed war crimes" and just leave it at that if you're not talking about specific events.

For any other society or period, you might need to do that. But the atrocious behavior in Roman practices was so widespread that there would be no end to it if you started detailing the acts individually. Granted, what you described is something that is obvious to students of history, but its not so obvious to the general public.

Re: The Great Illyrian Revolt

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macedonia is particularly egregious because its genesis as an ethnic group is still within living memory and would make as much sense as Pennsylvanians declaring themselves the last true Vikings, erecting statues with horned helmets and talking about retaking their true homelands. All other major ethnic groups in the Balkans have at least two or more generations from their creation, either synthetic or organic, and a…

I don't understand this comment about Macedonians. They seem like a pretty distinct ethnic group, as evidenced by the unique language and culture. That was not just created out of thin air in any kind of recent time. Are people upset about them adopting the name?

The Greeks are very upset, which is why the country recently renamed itself.
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