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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#761

Post by bkor »

derefr wrote: post #613
opendomain wrote: post #559

I love startups, but the value proposition is not here. I just had a heat pump installed and it was a much better price and higher efficiency. What is the benefit of direct to consumers is you are going to charge more? What makes your heat pumps better? Hepa filtering? Smart controls? They all have that. Is the market niche esthetics? They do look nice - maybe this company is trying to be the Apple of heat pumps? Cha…

IIRC: heat pumps aren’t even available for sale in many markets, because distributors don’t see enough interest to stock them. See also: water beds.

> IIRC: heat pumps aren’t even available for sale in many markets

If you've installed an airconditioning system which can cool and heat up your home you've installed a heat pump (air/air). They're hardly magic.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#762

Post by bkor »

socks wrote: post #742
veb wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say in New Zealand we definitely have them figured out. Every rental needs a heat-pump if there's no fireplace. Landlords will prefer the heat-pumps primarily because it's less maintenance. Apparently 25% of all households in NZ have one: https://www.genesisenergy.co.nz/tips-and-tricks/articles/use... ) you may also be interested in: https://figure.nz/chart/HkvN4YjwyylwL2A4 Ours are exactly the same sort of units…

You just helped me realise (as an Aussie living in Europe) that when some people are saying "air-to-air heat pump" what they mean is what an Aussie or Kiwi would call "reverse cycle air conditioner" - which are extremely common and affordable. The heat pumps I have seen personally in Europe are geothermal, very big, and very expensive.

> The heat pumps I have seen personally in Europe are geothermal, very big, and very expensive.

In NL I saw loads of water/water heat pumps (so using geothermal) in plans for new buildings. The latest plans now seem to prefer air/water. The air/water is cheaper and the units nowadays are much quieter than they used to be. This is just my observations, I could be way off.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#763

Post by malfist »

STM32F030R8 wrote: post #740
pokot0 wrote: post #735

I always wondered why the A/C units installed in the US do not make heat as well. In europe I have seen a push for this kind of units for at least 20 years now, to the point that I don't think anyone has bought anything else for the past 10. It seems your challenge is more about changing a status quo market then introducing a technology disruption that it's already been there for a long time now.

Heat pumps are very common in the US. That part isn’t really a challenge.

Heat pumps are super common, in the southern US I would be willing to bet you can't build a house without one, even geothermal is a heat pump.

I don't get what this startup is offering. Heat pumps are common and readily accessible, I can walk into lowes and buy one today and they can arrange a contractor to do the install. It'll be a lot less expensive this this setup.

If your business plan starts with "X is rare and hard to find" and X is actually extremely common, you're not going to be successful.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#764

Post by malfist »

sosodev wrote: post #402
cmui wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about capacity for heat pumps is tricky, their available heating power changes continuously as a function of outdoor temperature. The convention is to refer to the available capacity at 47F for 'normal' heat pump and the capacity at 5F for a cold climate heat pump.

Makes sense. How much does their capacity typically change over their operating temperature range?

Heat pumps extract heat, either from the house, or from the outside air.

When heating, it pulls it from the outside air. As it gets colder, there is less heat to pull out. Typically heat pumps will still keep pulling heat at >100% efficiency nearly into the negatives, but the amount they're extracting isn't enough to keep up with the heat loss of the house.

Heat lost of the house is a factor of insulation, surface area and heat gradient. It's a lot harder to keep a house at 68F when it's 5F outside than it is when it is 50F.

So when it's cold out, you need more heat generation, and there's less heat to pull from the air. That's why heat pumps have backup auxiliary heat.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#765

Post by m_d_ »

shjake wrote: post #691
snark42 wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about those in the northern half of the US that also need back-up heat for when it is very cold? This heat pump is supposed to work to -15F and includes back-up resistive heat. Theoretically it can replace a heater and air conditioner anywhere. I know people north of Chicago that use a similar heat pump and resistive backup system and it's been fine to -30F keeping the house at 69F. > I don't know the contract…

Resistive heating is very extremely inefficient compared to gas though

Clarification: resistive heating is very near 100% efficient, meaning that all of the energy you pull ends up in the air or water it is meant for. Gas water heating is at the very best ~90-95% efficient (e.g., top-end condensing tankless water heaters), but often as low as 60%: plenty of heat going out the exhaust. You think resistive heating is inefficient because policy has made electricity much more expensive per kwh than gas/oil.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#766

Post by oriolid »

stevekemp wrote: post #721
ricardobayes wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at these US prices with envy. Heat pumps are just becoming a thing in Europe and currently installers are looking to earn a quick buck. I've not seen an install under 20k in the UK lately, bolting on to existing radiators. Also Europe seems to be heavily into air-to-water systems.

My wife paid 4000 euros for a heatpump in Finland, last year. Mostly to be used for cooling during the summer, rather than for heating in the winters (since there is "district heating" available for that). Seemed pretty cheap, and the installation only took a day.

Air-to-air is much cheaper than connecting to water flow radiator system. Radiators aren't that great for cooling anyway.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#767

Post by malfist »

ahofmann wrote: post #746
garfieldnate wrote: post #743

I'm confused by the price on the website. It's only $100? Or is this a deposit to allow me to pay whatever the real price is? Hard to know whether this is worth it without knowing the price.

If you stay on the starting page, you can scroll down and see the prices (from 10k to 14k per unit + installation costs).

Which is bonkers.

Daikin's DZ20VC0241 is a 2 ton, 20 Seer heat pump available everywhere. Price including install is 5000-8200 (not counting tax credit).

Their offering is a 2 ton, 18 seer and costs 16k (not counting tax credit). Double the price at the high end of Daikin's install costs, triple at the low end.

Plus you get all sorts of vendor lock in with this startup

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#768

Post by oriolid »

KingMob wrote: post #667
c_o_n_v_e_x wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What the USA does NOT have figured out is how to accomplish trades like HVAC and construction without massive grift. The US has professional licensing schemes which increase costs. I had to work 5 years in the field doing HVAC work before even being eligible to get a license. Licensing limits the supply of labor while (in theory) establishing better quality. I've lived in countries with zero professional licensing a…

So, what I'm hearing is software engineers should be licensed.

Do you have the knowledge or time to conduct whiteboard interviews for every contractor?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#769

Post by Vrondi »

cmui wrote: post #639
quirkot wrote: post #633

I've seen other construction related businesses try to go direct and it is extremely difficult. By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" and "people who will pay more" How are you going to build your service network? You say you will "connect them with a contractor to do the actual install." But contractors make their money…

> By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" This is meant to be installed by a professional contractor, not the homeowner. > How are you going to build your service network? Compensate the contractors fairly and act as lead gen. > Who are the decision makers in your target market exactly? Homeowners. Not targeting multiunit r…

If I still have to hire a contractor, then why on Earth would I direct buy from you? The only reason I'm even interested in reading this post is the idea of installing myself with no contractor involved. I can't imagine why anyone not interested in self install would ever want to direct buy. Too much hassle to still have to go find a contractor willing to do it.
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