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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#741

Post by verelo »

sokoloff wrote: post #517
verelo wrote: post #460

Chris, great and i love that you're working on this. We need more heatpumps in this world! Any chance there's a solution coming for people with hydronic systems? We have a house in rural Ontario that has in-floor hydronic in the basement and hydronic radiators upstairs too. We'd love to get off propane, but there are virtually zero options without us installing ducts (which due to the German wood-frame design is very…

There are air-to-water heat pumps, provided your emitters are sized such that you can heat your home with flow temps at/under 135°F. (I was able to test the prior winter and turning my aquastat way down and see when the house was no longer able to maintain the desired setpoint. For me, that was at about 9°F and it fell by about 1°F inside for every 2°F outside below that over a single night.) If you can get by with 1…

Interesting! I think upstairs we would struggle but the basement slab runs cooler, I’m pretty sure it would handle this pretty fine. I’ll check it out, thanks!!

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#742

Post by socks »

veb wrote: post #474
adventured wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out A single digit percentage of homes globally are using heat pumps, most of the world does not have it figured out. That's specifically why Electric Air exists, they're chasing what is going to be a gigantic market (if it were already such a figured out market they couldn't get funding without a revolutionary 10x approach, YC would have little interest).

I'd say in New Zealand we definitely have them figured out. Every rental needs a heat-pump if there's no fireplace. Landlords will prefer the heat-pumps primarily because it's less maintenance. Apparently 25% of all households in NZ have one: https://www.genesisenergy.co.nz/tips-and-tricks/articles/use... ) you may also be interested in: https://figure.nz/chart/HkvN4YjwyylwL2A4 Ours are exactly the same sort of units…

You just helped me realise (as an Aussie living in Europe) that when some people are saying "air-to-air heat pump" what they mean is what an Aussie or Kiwi would call "reverse cycle air conditioner" - which are extremely common and affordable. The heat pumps I have seen personally in Europe are geothermal, very big, and very expensive.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#744

Post by lb1lf »

spockz wrote: post #666
yurishimo wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe as a whole has been utilizing heat pumps for residential heavily over the past decade. With global temperatures rising, heat pump installs in OECD countries are skyrocketing as the climate becomes uncomfortable for larger and larger groups of people. In the Netherlands, I can purchase a minisplit with installation for under €4k. It could get cheaper if I wanted something less powerful. While your point about "…

Where are you looking for I’m a bit concerned about what happens when it freezes. Can the outdoor unit still I operate?

I am using a Panasonic unit a little south of the Arctic circle. Even at -20C outside it works fine.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#745

Post by lsaferite »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #169
sokoloff wrote: post #59

I tried like hell to install an air-to-water heat pump instead of a replacement gas boiler and it didn't make anything close to economic sense to do so. What do I want from a heat-pump: I want it to work with a contact-closure (TT/XX) input to call for heat/cooling. Sure, if you have a fancy thermostat that works better, I'm going to read the brochure, but I'm not buying it if I find out it won't work with just a dry…

Nobody will build a heat-pump system with an on/off control system like that because the performance will be awful. Certainly not an air-to-water system.

Heatpumps are essentially pretty dumb devices at core. They use 24v AC for control, there's a reversing valve contactor to control if it's heating or cooling, there's a contactor for the fan, and one for each stage of the pump. Maybe there's another contactor for the emergency heating element. If you are fancy you might have contactors for UV sterilization, humidification, and/or dehumidification.

Literally the 'smartest' part of my HVAC system, beyond the thermostat, is the blower fan. It's a variable speed motor and has a speed controller integrated into the motor housing with multiple 'taps' that let you control the fan speed in steps. It's configurable if you have the programming hardware.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#746

Post by ahofmann »

garfieldnate wrote: post #743

I'm confused by the price on the website. It's only $100? Or is this a deposit to allow me to pay whatever the real price is? Hard to know whether this is worth it without knowing the price.

If you stay on the starting page, you can scroll down and see the prices (from 10k to 14k per unit + installation costs).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#747

Post by lsaferite »

pokot0 wrote: post #735

I always wondered why the A/C units installed in the US do not make heat as well. In europe I have seen a push for this kind of units for at least 20 years now, to the point that I don't think anyone has bought anything else for the past 10. It seems your challenge is more about changing a status quo market then introducing a technology disruption that it's already been there for a long time now.

In the South-East US we've used Heat Pumps for at least 35-40+ years. Probably longer, I'm just lowering the number because I was a kid and don't know when they became the norm exactly. We don't have strong winters here so even the older heat pumps were fine with keeping houses warm. And we had/have resistive electric heating to supplement if the temp dropped too fast or too low.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#748

Post by boringg »

Conceptually this sounds compelling. How do you get around having to use heat pump manufacturers or are you beholden to them to build your product?

From a mini split perspective - where we have our heat pumps situated is for AC and when we would use them for electricity (winter) those floors are already to hot. Ie take heat away in the summer on third floor, not add heat in the winter on third floor. They are the best on the market but are completely trash interface for managing temperature - all individually controlled remotes. I could do the work to integrate them but ive heard its cumbersome and doesnt work well.(to your points).

Good luck

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#749

Post by LeonM »

sokoloff wrote: post #59

I tried like hell to install an air-to-water heat pump instead of a replacement gas boiler and it didn't make anything close to economic sense to do so. What do I want from a heat-pump: I want it to work with a contact-closure (TT/XX) input to call for heat/cooling. Sure, if you have a fancy thermostat that works better, I'm going to read the brochure, but I'm not buying it if I find out it won't work with just a dry…

> I want it to work with a contact-closure (TT/XX) input to call for heat/cooling. Sure, if you have a fancy thermostat that works better, I'm going to read the brochure, but I'm not buying it if I find out it won't work with just a dry contact input.

> I want it to have an open interface to extract data (similar to the open interface of a dry-contact closure) about run-time, performance, etc. (I will, however, buy it without this.)

FWIW, there is a standard called OpenTherm which most off the shelf thermostats support and HVAC systems support. It's a 2-wire serial 2-way protocol, quite simple.

IIRC OpenTherm even has a fallback compatibility mode where closing the loop will enable the system at full power, though I am not sure this will work with heat pumps, as they can both heat and cool.

You could even rig up a Raspberry Pi or equivalent with an OpenTherm interface and attach it to any OpenTherm compatible heater/cooler to control it and read stats.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#750

Post by [deleted] »

cmui wrote: post #639
quirkot wrote: post #633

I've seen other construction related businesses try to go direct and it is extremely difficult. By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" and "people who will pay more" How are you going to build your service network? You say you will "connect them with a contractor to do the actual install." But contractors make their money…

> By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" This is meant to be installed by a professional contractor, not the homeowner. > How are you going to build your service network? Compensate the contractors fairly and act as lead gen. > Who are the decision makers in your target market exactly? Homeowners. Not targeting multiunit r…

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