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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#701

Post by friendzis »

> I would love to hear your ideas, experiences, and feedback on any and all of the above!

1. Why would direct sale be regarded as a plus? I *need* a certified contractor to do the install for the warranty anyway, so instead of buying heat pump install I now have to buy heat pump and search for contractor separately? Even if this is somehow totally DIY-able device, I still need a contractor to do yearly service anyway. At the same time you would be targeting a population of DIYers with fully integrated product. Those are not really compatible. Whoever is doing product-market fit at your company should really reconsider their bubble.

2. Regarding thermostat, WTF. Per room thermostats are only useful if you can control individual circuits. I have never seen a residential ductwork with circuit control. You tune diffusers and forget. Now, even if you could control per circuit energy flow (which is usually a property of floor heating), in any modern house you would be looking at something like 2 degree difference between zero and max rooms at something like -15C outside. Look at offerings from e.g. Danfoss.

3. Claimed temperature gradients are weird. Are we talking about air source pumps? Modern R32 pumps barely handle -25C outside at MAYBE 1.0 CoP, but manage to heat DHW up to 50-60.

4. Brand. As far as I can understand you are considering building your own units? Do you have proven track record of intimate understanding of metallurgy and design behind modern scroll compressors? Your track record of working at Tesla does not inspire confidence. And even if it did, why would I buy your compressor instead of buying a product from trusted Daikin/Panasonic/Nibe? Not only I know that they make good (performant and reliable) products, but I can trust them more to exist when I need spare parts.

5. > While we don't have any physical prototypes at the moment, we have the industrial design and also largely understand how this will be built. The core technology risk is quite low.

Well... You do not have neither proven prototype nor proven process. And yet you already take preorders. This definitely does not inspire confidence that you intend to ship the best product possible. Sorry if that sounds harsh. Show me your pump achieving at least 1.0 CoP at -25 outside, at least +30 supply at minimum 70% of nominal power.

6. Your value proposition seems to be better integration between heating unit, thermostats and HRV. What are your plans to support wider ecosystem? This sounds like a major lock-in requirement for the whole HVAC system.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#702

Post by enriquto »

runnerup wrote: post #615
cmui wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

24V controls: Any inverter heat pump will run best with a communicating thermostat. We can make efficiency sacrifices to run the system on 24V controls, but it would not be my recommended setup. Refrigerants: this is largely dictated by compressor availability. At this point it looks like R454B is the winner (GWP 467) You're right about new construction builders wanting whatever is cheapest. They don't bear the cost…

Can you open the communication API so that FLOSS licensed software/hardware can run the unit instead of replacing/repairing your interface?

He will reply with a pile of word salad again and again, never addressing the crucial API issue.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#703

Post by afterburner »

tomcam wrote: post #636
afterburner wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries and dams can be used to store energy. It doesn't have to be sunny and/or windy all the time. Excess generation capacity takes care of the issue. Regardless, burning natural gas for heat is burning 100% fossil fuels for heat, while electricity is not generally generated 100% by fossil fuels. Using electricity is still a huge improvement even now. And if you're using baseboard heating (electric), heat pumps a…

If batteries and dams are so effective, why were Germany and Texas caught off guard during the last few years?

Wow, this says everything I need to know about you. You are arguing in incredibly bad faith.

Germany? What the natural gas thing? They heavily relied on it through building up gas heating and then they had to embargo Russia due to their invasion of Ukraine. You can't replace all German homes with heat pumps overnight, and they hadn't even started until the war started.

Texas? They refuse to winterize their energy grid against winter weather and have repeatedly suffered failures over the last couple decades when they get an bad winter storm. Note that the biggest parts of the grid that failed were natural gas power generation. They are also not connected to the rest of the US grids which could have helped, because they don't want to be federally regulated, because they don't want to spend money to winterize their grid.

Now, what does that have to do with dams and batteries? Absolutely nothing. It's just fossil fuel generation failing thanks to regressive policy. You realize you have to build the new power generation before you can blame it right?

Nice try.

Don't worry, I don't have to convince you. Solar and wind will get so cheap even stubborn regressives will want to build it. Only the fossil fuel companies will resist. I guess maybe you work for one?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#704

Post by Cthulhu_ »

donkeyd wrote: post #671
opendomain wrote: post #559

I love startups, but the value proposition is not here. I just had a heat pump installed and it was a much better price and higher efficiency. What is the benefit of direct to consumers is you are going to charge more? What makes your heat pumps better? Hepa filtering? Smart controls? They all have that. Is the market niche esthetics? They do look nice - maybe this company is trying to be the Apple of heat pumps? Cha…

> What is the benefit of direct to consumers is you are going to charge more? I'm going to guess there's a very specific target market for this, 'lazy' people with a lot of money who don't really do a lot of research before they buy stuff. They are aware of climate change and the need to reduce emissions and have heard of heat pumps as a solution. They've already installed solar panels through a similar service that…

> But there are also plenty young people who are like this.

I think there's a subcategory of people who would go for this one specifically because it's a SF company, "one of us" kinda thinking. And unawareness of the market and competition where heat pumps are normalized, routine, and don't need the sleek marketing page / YC funding.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#706

Post by sparsely »

spockz wrote: post #666
yurishimo wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe as a whole has been utilizing heat pumps for residential heavily over the past decade. With global temperatures rising, heat pump installs in OECD countries are skyrocketing as the climate becomes uncomfortable for larger and larger groups of people. In the Netherlands, I can purchase a minisplit with installation for under €4k. It could get cheaper if I wanted something less powerful. While your point about "…

Where are you looking for I’m a bit concerned about what happens when it freezes. Can the outdoor unit still I operate?

> I’m a bit concerned about what happens when it freezes. Can the outdoor unit still I operate?

Yes as long as the parts where chosen by someone with a bare minimum of competence. The efficiency will be lower than ideal but still better than electric radiators. Norway has very high heat-pump installation rates.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#707

Post by tomcam »

afterburner wrote: post #703
tomcam wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If batteries and dams are so effective, why were Germany and Texas caught off guard during the last few years?

Wow, this says everything I need to know about you. You are arguing in incredibly bad faith. Germany? What the natural gas thing? They heavily relied on it through building up gas heating and then they had to embargo Russia due to their invasion of Ukraine. You can't replace all German homes with heat pumps overnight, and they hadn't even started until the war started. Texas? They refuse to winterize their energy gri…

Didn’t mean to trigger you. Sorry. The point I’m making is that no matter how cheap solar and wind are, with electric cars increasing in popularity, usage is getting more and more lopsided. The network just cannot deal with peak loads, especially in places with harsh winters. Solar and wind are pretty useless at night or when there’s no wind, which is a lot of the time. And thanks for the detailed answer!

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#708

Post by alangibson »

cmui wrote: post #432
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #244

Please consider on-boarding to Home Assistant. Avoid proprietary protocols to communicate between sub-systems as much as possible. The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet. Do not require internet connectivity, a hub, or some intermediary solution if a third party system (such as Home Assistant) wants to communicate to the system. My biggest fe…

I hear your concerns! Just want to reiterate (since this is one of the top comments) no internet connectivity is required to operate the system. We will have integrations that also allow you to change the setpoint with your home system of choice. We're not interested in holding people hostage, we want to make the best way to heat and cool your home, and make it easy to get. If you're willing to turn on wifi, you can…

> We're not interested in holding people hostage

This one isn't your fault, but many people aren't going to believe you. What they will hear is "We're not interested in holding people hostage (until we need some of that sweet subscription revenue)". And they'll know that features can be paywalled with a simple firmware update.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#709

Post by coupdejarnac »

I used to be an engineer at Lennox.. HVAC is a mature and boring industry, so I can understand how it doesn't usually generate much interest among people who are attracted to startups. However, just because the industry is very mature doesn't mean the incumbents aren't innovating. I haven't been at Lennox for several years now. I just searched their heatpump offerings, and they look comprehensive.

I'm not sure what to tell you, but good luck.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#710

Post by friendzis »

cmui wrote: post #639
quirkot wrote: post #633

I've seen other construction related businesses try to go direct and it is extremely difficult. By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" and "people who will pay more" How are you going to build your service network? You say you will "connect them with a contractor to do the actual install." But contractors make their money…

> By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" This is meant to be installed by a professional contractor, not the homeowner. > How are you going to build your service network? Compensate the contractors fairly and act as lead gen. > Who are the decision makers in your target market exactly? Homeowners. Not targeting multiunit r…

> A natural gas furnace requires ~150cfm airflow per 10kbtu heat produced, while a heat pump requires 330cfm per 10kbtu.

How do you arrive at these figures? First, you are stating flow numbers at total energy which does not make sense. Second, airflow requirements at certain power (not energy you cite) come from heat exchanger size and temperature gradient. What are operational parameters of the reference natgas heater?

Let's assume that you mean 10kbtu/h instead of 10kbtu. That is ~3kW. For reference Nibe F730 produces ~5kW at 250M^3/h, i.e. 150 cfm.

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