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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#611

Post by midoridensha »

jijji wrote: post #577
thaeli wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often wondered why this is. My best guess is that the EPA cert (not actually hard to get) has been turned into some sort of weird quasi-guild-membership thing. I can walk right in to a "to the trade" electrical or plumbing supply and they'll deal with me, no problem, no questions asked. With HVAC.. they won't even talk to you without an EPA number, even if you're not buying refrigerant. DTC for whole house syste…

when dealing with HVAC you either have to have a friend on the inside who has a license for mechanical or you have to buy everything on eBay... because you're right most of the supply houses won't talk to you unless you have an HVAC license of some sort, That's why most of the stuff I get is on eBay.... things like capacitors, blower motors, heat strips, R410A refrigerant etc either eBay or Facebook marketplace is th…

Here in Japan, every home store and electronics/appliance store sells mini-split HVAC systems directly to consumers. It's no different than buying a washing machine.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#612

Post by dtgriscom »

sokoloff wrote: post #233
RetpolineDrama wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but I'm not buying it if I find out it won't work with a dry contact input. But... why?

Because it's from a new entrant to the market and I don't know that their complex interface will be available, supported, and serviceable 12 years into the 20 year lifetime of the equipment. I do know that I will always be able to provide a dry contact closure in the event they go belly-up and the thermostat goes unsupported. I have my current gas boiler working via an outdoor reset mechanism that provides flow water…

Ah, clarification: you're OK with using a proprietary (and intelligently proportional) thermostat, as long as there's a backup dry contact option if the factory thermostat fails and is irreplaceable.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#613

Post by derefr »

opendomain wrote: post #559

I love startups, but the value proposition is not here. I just had a heat pump installed and it was a much better price and higher efficiency. What is the benefit of direct to consumers is you are going to charge more? What makes your heat pumps better? Hepa filtering? Smart controls? They all have that. Is the market niche esthetics? They do look nice - maybe this company is trying to be the Apple of heat pumps? Cha…

IIRC: heat pumps aren’t even available for sale in many markets, because distributors don’t see enough interest to stock them.

See also: water beds.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#615

Post by runnerup »

cmui wrote: post #489
spaceguillotine wrote: post #364

How will you compete with Goodman/Daikin and needing lineset runs with usually high voltage work and panel upgrades that sometimes come with converting to a heat pump. If you don't use 24V AC controls i don't think it would take off with any installers and you seriously limit and then hinder yourself needing way more customer support. What refrigerants are you considering as there is more environmental stuff coming o…

24V controls: Any inverter heat pump will run best with a communicating thermostat. We can make efficiency sacrifices to run the system on 24V controls, but it would not be my recommended setup. Refrigerants: this is largely dictated by compressor availability. At this point it looks like R454B is the winner (GWP 467) You're right about new construction builders wanting whatever is cheapest. They don't bear the cost…

Can you open the communication API so that FLOSS licensed software/hardware can run the unit instead of replacing/repairing your interface?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#616

Post by heatpumpfan »

rcme wrote: post #291
heatpumpfan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an older system. New systems can provide 100% rated capacity well below freezing. Mine is -5F and not specifically a "cold climate" unit. The unit in OP seems to offer 100% nameplate capacity at 5F.

These are brand new heat pumps. I don’t think it’s possible to have high efficiency at cold temps because of the need for a defrost cycle. I just check and mine are around 2 COP at 8F and 5 COP at 40F.

It is not clear why your heat pump cuts over at 40 degrees if it still has COP of 2 at 8 degrees. Presumably a cost-effectiveness calculation if gas is cheap in your area. If you had heat strips instead of gas, the "cut over" temperature would be much lower. If your unit is capable of operating at full capacity below 8F, it would likely only use resistive heating below 5F. For most climate zones, that is fine and your unit does not sound like one specifically deemed a "cold climate" heat pump, the which now regularly achieve full rated output down to -15F. Of course, it's only rarely that cold even in "cold climate" zones so operating down at a COP of 1 for these short durations is not a real problem. The impetus for systems designed for lower temperature operation is not really aimed at those with cheap gas but at those living where heat pumps were previously only feasible for heating if using much more expensive ground source systems. Achieving year-round heat with only the heat pump eliminates the need for a furnace so you have to include this missing gear and installation cost in your analysis.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#617

Post by sokoloff »

dtgriscom wrote: post #612
sokoloff wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's from a new entrant to the market and I don't know that their complex interface will be available, supported, and serviceable 12 years into the 20 year lifetime of the equipment. I do know that I will always be able to provide a dry contact closure in the event they go belly-up and the thermostat goes unsupported. I have my current gas boiler working via an outdoor reset mechanism that provides flow water…

Ah, clarification: you're OK with using a proprietary (and intelligently proportional) thermostat, as long as there's a backup dry contact option if the factory thermostat fails and is irreplaceable.

Yes, that’s true; I’m ok to use a proprietary thermostat if I think it will save me money in 2 years max. (I’m using Sensi wifi thermostats that will become non-programmable if they stop supporting their phone app. It’s ok, as they were around $40 each after incentives and I’ll save most of that just this heating season. Its interface to the boiler is just power, common, and call-for-heat.)

At least in a hydronic (air-to-water or gas-fired) application, an intelligent stat is not mandatory to get decent efficiency (from variable control). You still have building heat transfer rate and outdoor temp sensing available inside the unit even with just a contact closure.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#618

Post by SamBam »

ttul wrote: post #455
Max-q wrote: post #448

In Norway most homes have one or more heat pumps. We are living in a cold climate and the pumps are being used like 9-10 months a year. The most common brands are Japanese: Toshiba, Mitsubishi and Panasonic. I will not agree that the user experience is bad at all. They are very good products. Stand alone they work well and with integration they work together with the power company to optimize the energy consumption v…

They are UGLY though...

Who sees the indoor unit in a ducted system?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#619

Post by cmui »

litiholofan wrote: post #614

>The thermostat algorithm combines demand-response with weather and time-of-use rate plans Any chance of a dumb version of this without the internet connected bloat?

Thermostat operates as a standalone device, no internet connectivity required. If you connect it to wifi it receives demand response, weather and TOU signals to reduce your utility bill.
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