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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#561

Post by fomine3 »

adventured wrote: post #391
dmarlow wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for…

> The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out A single digit percentage of homes globally are using heat pumps, most of the world does not have it figured out. That's specifically why Electric Air exists, they're chasing what is going to be a gigantic market (if it were already such a figured out market they couldn't get funding without a revolutionary 10x approach, YC would have little interest).

$500 + $150 (install) mini split works fine in Japan and it should be fine for other worlds where central heating isn't a thing. US is one of the richest country and rest of the world spend less.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#562

Post by sokoloff »

criddell wrote: post #558
sokoloff wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of poor engineering fundamentals among some HVAC salespeople and some websites as well as some sloppy writing. The delta-T that is correctly cited as being "around a max of 20°F" is the delta in temperature across the evaporator (IOW between the return duct and the supply duct [aka the goes-inta and the goes-outta]). It's not the delta-T between the outside air and inside air . With good enough insulati…

So in places like Arizona where the outside temperature can reach 120F and the inside temperature has to be 82F (what landlords are required to provide to tenants), are they just using bigger units than they would in some place where the temperature rarely breaks 95? The refrigerants are the same?

Same refrigerants work. Getting a large decrease in temp vs outside is a matter of insulation, air sealing, roof/wall color, and sizing of units/ducts.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#564

Post by cmui »

opendomain wrote: post #559

I love startups, but the value proposition is not here. I just had a heat pump installed and it was a much better price and higher efficiency. What is the benefit of direct to consumers is you are going to charge more? What makes your heat pumps better? Hepa filtering? Smart controls? They all have that. Is the market niche esthetics? They do look nice - maybe this company is trying to be the Apple of heat pumps? Cha…

Mind sharing some details of your install - equipment model/size, controls, and cost of install?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#565

Post by cstejerean »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #520
cstejerean wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also tend to only install units that you can't buy directly and only quote for total cost not parts and labor so you cannot easily tell just how much they are charging for the labor.

What difference would the breakdown on parts and labor make to you as a prospective client, given that you cannot buy the units directly?

It must make a difference otherwise they'd provide the breakdown when asked.

I suspect most consumers don't know how much the appliance should cost, it is a complex piece of machinery. But the labor part is easier to reason about.

So seeing $12k all in to install a heat pump might seem reasonable, people will shrug and say heatpumps must be expensive, but if they see that's $5k for the heat pump and $7k for the labor then it doesn't seem so reasonable.

And there are alternatives. You can buy comparable units from other manufacturers directly and shop for labor only (harder to find but not impossible). And there are sealed DIY units you can install yourself.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#566

Post by briHass »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #520
cstejerean wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also tend to only install units that you can't buy directly and only quote for total cost not parts and labor so you cannot easily tell just how much they are charging for the labor.

What difference would the breakdown on parts and labor make to you as a prospective client, given that you cannot buy the units directly?

The answer to this, assuming the breakdown was actually honest, is exactly why they don't typically provide a breakdown. You would see an hourly labor rate that would make a lawyer blush. There's just something unpalatable to most people about seeing a $200-300+/hr labor rate, especially considering that the average person paying that rate probably make closer to $20-40/hr.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#568

Post by criddell »

brudgers wrote: post #507
criddell wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The short cycle argument only really applies to older and low end systems that are not variable speed. A variable speed system integrated with a humidifier should be able to slowly bring the temperature down, making sure that the cooling does not get ahead of the dehumidifying. I want an “oversized” system that can do > 20F temperature drops. I know they exist because a lot of commercial spaces have them.

Short cycling is thermodynamics, not an argument.

As I understand it, short cycling is a problem with air conditioners that cycle on and off. You can get staged compressors, multi-speed compressors, and truly variable speed compressors. A truly variable speed compressor runs continuously and so won’t short cycle.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#569

Post by mydriasis »

ilamont wrote: post #334
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #244

Please consider on-boarding to Home Assistant. Avoid proprietary protocols to communicate between sub-systems as much as possible. The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet. Do not require internet connectivity, a hub, or some intermediary solution if a third party system (such as Home Assistant) wants to communicate to the system. My biggest fe…

> The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet. Rural users often have limited or no access to Internet service, yet need technology like this to heat and cool their homes.

Hey, that's me! We wound up getting a pellet stove, super cheap to operate and very efficient so far, but I'd also be open to a heat pump at the right price range. We're some of the few with high quality Internet. Lots of my neighbors have wood burning stoves or pellet burners, because they're so cheap to operate compared to the next possibility, which is propane, a very expensive fossil fuel.

Pellets being renewable is great, but if the heat pump does just as well, or at least assists, they might get lots of rural bites. I'm excited to see where this goes.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#570

Post by criddell »

sokoloff wrote: post #562
criddell wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in places like Arizona where the outside temperature can reach 120F and the inside temperature has to be 82F (what landlords are required to provide to tenants), are they just using bigger units than they would in some place where the temperature rarely breaks 95? The refrigerants are the same?

Same refrigerants work. Getting a large decrease in temp vs outside is a matter of insulation, air sealing, roof/wall color, and sizing of units/ducts.

Thanks for the information.

One more question- what about commercial spaces where they will have a door open and be flooding the store with ice cold air. It sure feels like more than a 20 degree difference.

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