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Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

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Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#151

Post by twodave »

Ancapistani wrote: post #140
twodave wrote: post #29

I'd never let any of my kids work in a meat processing facility. The danger element alone with combined with unpredictable children sounds like The Jungle just waiting to happen again. Still 100 kids out of all the employees seems like a really small fraction, to the point where I wonder if these kids were all related to employees. I've got little sympathy for the company here, but seeing how scarce certain items are…

> I'd never let any of my kids work in a meat processing facility. I did, both as a child and as an adult. It wasn't driven by financial need, though, which is obviously a huge difference. In my case it was because I wanted to contribute to my uncle's small business. I did whatever was needed at the "meat shop" during summer vacation when I was a young teen. Sometimes that was working the front desk and selling summe…

Yeah, I can 100% understand doing that as part of a family business; when your employer is your family it's pretty much assumed they have your best interest at heart (though I realize that isn't always true), and even if you're being paid very little there's a good chance you'll benefit from helping your family prosper.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#152

Post by Ancapistani »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #143
Ancapistani wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about Wisconsin, but in my state RealID is entirely optional. When you get a driver's license (or state ID/"Non-driver's license") you have the option to have your fingerprints taken to receive a RealID compliant ID, or not, in which case your ID is valid for only state purposes. I'm a natural-born US citizen, and I opted not to get a RealID-compliant state ID. I have no need for it. I use my driver's li…

Fingerprints aren't required for RealID. That's some nanny state BS your local government has added on. They aren't even needed for an Enhanced license for N.Am. border crossings.

Yeah, I'm aware of that.

The point is that a state-issued RealID provides me with no benefit, so any amount of effort beyond "yeah, sure, I'll check this box" isn't worth it for me.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#153

Post by Ancapistani »

ethanbond wrote: post #105
Ancapistani wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this related to the story? The story is about companies using children as workers in hazardous job. It’s illegal regardless of their documentation status. I don't know about this particular case, but I don't know of any large business that's purposefully hiring children, or people not legally able to work in the US. They're hiring immigrants who are providing false documents. If you're already using false do…

It is not even close to true that most employers don’t know their employees are illegal immigrants. Your view on this is wildly out of touch with reality. Describing it even as “open secret” makes it sound more secretive than it is in practice.

> It is not even close to true that most employers don’t know their employees are illegal immigrants. Your view on this is wildly out of touch with reality.

Oh, I know they know.

My point is that Tyson (et al) doesn't "officially" know. Their employees are providing documents, Tyson is submitting those docs to the government, and that's that.

> Describing it even as “open secret” makes it sound more secretive than it is in practice.

Knowing something to be true and being able to prove that thing is true are two very different things.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#154

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

nightpool wrote: post #38
nostromo wrote: post #21

There are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. Both major parties support this system. Some Republican interests enjoy the access to dirt-cheap labor. Some Democratic interests want immigrants to be able to find jobs despite it being illegal to employ them. So we end up with a system where employers have no easy way to verify that an employee is who they say they are and has a…

"This is such an easy problem to solve" How? If someone uses a fully faked/stolen identity, with a valid SSN / passport # / etc (which every single company is required to check), how do you propose we catch them?

>how do you propose we catch them?

Incentives and chilling effects.

Automatic 30 days in jail for everyone who oversaw a minor get hired, per day worked. If more than five minors or across multiple managerial departments consider it systemic and send all overseeing managers and their managers to jail for 30 days per minor per shift worked. Strict liability and mandatory minimums are effective against white collar crimes unlike crimes of desperation.

Over ten kids and the company should be seized, all management imprisoned and all assets auctioned off. Give the legal employees enhanced unemployment to bridge the disruption to their employment.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#155

Post by Ancapistani »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #139
pphysch wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course Tyson knows. Cheaper labor directly translates to increased profits. If Tyson and other megacorporations don't encourage this practice, they are leaving money on the table and violating their fiduciary duty.

[flagged]

> The ease with which you justify child labor is extremely concerning.

I don't see anyone justifying anything here.

I'm probably coming the closest to that, and I'm very carefully only trying to share my understanding that's based on living nearby and having at least some interactions with this community. I'm absolutely not defending or justifying anything; I'm pointing out that there are multiple perspectives here and that it's not quite so clear cut.

> Not to mention that where one finds illegal workers one tends to find child sexual exploitation because illegals don’t tend to report the crimes they’re victims of.

Please consider not using the term "illegals" to refer to people. "Illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants" is at least marginally better, as it at least acknowledges that these are people we're talking about.

I'm not on the same side of this as most of HN seems to be - I hate to even bring it up, but it's relevant here to provide some background on my own views. I'm opposed to illegal immigration, "amnesty", and want to significantly increase border security. I'd summarize my overall position as wanting "A big, beautiful wall with big, beautiful open doors." Anyone who wants to come here should be able to do so, but we absolutely must know who is coming in, why, and be able to prevent known dangerous people from entering the country and disappearing.

None of the above is a reason to marginalize individual people and families. I don't go so far as to insist that people use milquetoast terms like "undocumented people", but I recognize that language impacts how we view things. These are people. Policies are driven by public opinion, and public opinion is driven by the language we use.

As for the point you're making, I agree. Much of these communities are living under the threat of deportation, and the rest inherits that distrust of authority. Crimes go unreported. We should definitely consider that when addressing issues that impact them.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#156

Post by Ancapistani »

ticviking wrote: post #130
Ancapistani wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the area where Tyson has most of its poultry operations, and I know a few people who work for them fairly well - including a couple who are working there under false identities due to immigration status. Tyson knows. They couldn't _not_ know. They seem to maintain an acceptable level of "plausible deniability" at least, and I've not seen any evidence that they're explicitly allowing it to happen, or even th…

> If anything, I'd expect a crackdown on illegal labor practices here to result in funneling more money to criminal organizations (i.e., "the cartels") and tying the immigrant community more deeply with them. It really looks like a lose/lose proposition from where I sit. Another potential outcome is that with the price of illegal labor practices increased legal labor would become competitive against illegal labor aga…

Tyson is already one of the best-paying employers in the area. If that's not making legal labor competitive, what would?

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#157

Post by Ancapistani »

pphysch wrote: post #149
onedognight wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their fiduciary duty is to violate the law to make money?

If that is what it takes, sure. As long as the punishment is less than the reward, it's good business.

If you have enough money to pay the fine without worrying about it, the fine is just "the price".

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#158

Post by rftyuikdjhgvcf »

Ancapistani wrote: post #156
ticviking wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything, I'd expect a crackdown on illegal labor practices here to result in funneling more money to criminal organizations (i.e., "the cartels") and tying the immigrant community more deeply with them. It really looks like a lose/lose proposition from where I sit. Another potential outcome is that with the price of illegal labor practices increased legal labor would become competitive against illegal labor aga…

Tyson is already one of the best-paying employers in the area. If that's not making legal labor competitive, what would?

naive.

they are the best paying in the area because they win over competition by using cheap illegal labour. nobody honest can compete with that, so they break/move.

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#159

Post by lalopalota »

gleenn wrote: post #30
oramit wrote: post #19

"Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, the department assessed PSSI $15,138 for each minor-aged employee who was employed in violation of the law. The amount is the maximum civil money penalty allowed by federal law." Wow, I knew that labor laws in the US were toothless but to have it spelled out like this is so depressing. A max penalty of ~15k per violation, just bravo team, bravo.

Is it $15k because the total penalty doesn't depend on the number of people and it's just $1.5M/100 kids so it happens to be $15k?

The max penalty is 15k per infraction * 100 kids = 1.5m

Re: Over 100 kids illegally employed in hazardous jobs, contractor pays $1.5M fine

#160

Post by mrguyorama »

nostromo wrote: post #21

There are millions of undocumented workers in the US using fake identities to get jobs. Both major parties support this system. Some Republican interests enjoy the access to dirt-cheap labor. Some Democratic interests want immigrants to be able to find jobs despite it being illegal to employ them. So we end up with a system where employers have no easy way to verify that an employee is who they say they are and has a…

> Some Democratic interests want immigrants to be able to find jobs despite it being illegal to employ them.

What? What evidence do you have for this assertion?

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