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Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

economist.com

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Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#121

Post by [deleted] »

anonporridge wrote: post #69
yeuxardents wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does something like that even happen...? All I can consider is the relatively small size of the UK, and how one can drive from one side of the other in the UK in just 15 or so hours...

My understanding after reading this article is that the problem has nothing to do with ambulances or medics. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/20/world/europe/uk-ambulance... First order problem, the hospitals have no beds. This means that ambulances end up waiting for hours and medics twiddling their thumbs at the ER until the staff can finally take the patient. Medics can't just abandon the patient because there lega…

[deleted]

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#122

Post by petre »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #55
perardi wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious what country you could move to that isn’t co-opted by the wealthy and powerful. Sure isn’t Canada. Sure isn’t anywhere in the EU. Super-duper-sure it isn’t anywhere in Asia.

I don't know honestly, never been to any of these places and after moving around several times within the US I realize how nice it is to just be setted in one place, but here's what I would consider: Netherlands (I really like biking), Germany (Cologne seems like a nice vibe), France (Probably Paris, Food obviously, but I also really appreciate people's willingness to protest stuff)

Nederlands has not so great weather. If you're used to the West Coast and like to cycle, try Girona. A bit more wet though. Pay is obviously a lot lower than you may be used to.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#124

Post by cyclotron3k »

nradov wrote: post #75
markdown wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concerted efforts by the Tories over decades to defund public health so that they can raise a generation of people who sincerely believe that it's best for the country for the government to get out of Healthcare and leave that to the more efficient private sector. It's a very slow process that requires first the defunding, then some brainwashing via television. The American model.

The UK NHS budget has been steadily increasing. You can't plausibly claim that the Tories have defunded public health over decades. Some might claim that the funding should have increased at a faster rate, but there are limits to what any society can spend on healthcare. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...

Very interesting. So what's causing the blowout in A&E wait times?

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#125

Post by piperswe »

0xy wrote: post #93

The UK's doctors and nurses are essentially slaves compared to their US counterparts. They make a quarter of the pay or less for equivalent work. When your healthcare strategy is "just employ slaves so we can have free healthcare" of course people will die.

To be fair, medical degrees in the UK are subsidized by the NHS, so they aren't paying extravagant student loans

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#126

Post by MiddleEndian »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #106
schemescape wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morbid question, but if someone dies while waiting, are they included in the “average wait time” statistic?

The ambulance still shows up to declare someone dead.

What if somebody else finds them in less than 48 hours?

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#127

Post by geysersam »

0xy wrote: post #89
58028641 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just cause the dollar amount is increasing doesn't mean it isn't being defunded. You have to account for inflation, population size, and population age distribution.

NHS spending has increased by over 6.5% yearly since 2010, with even more massive increases planned for 2024-25. Want a comparison? France's healthcare spending increased 0.3% yearly in the same timeframe. The UK is outpacing France's spending increases by 2,066%. The spending argument is made from political propaganda, not from fact.

> increased by over 6.5% yearly since 2010

Could you provide a source for that? Such an increase would imply a doubling of the budget over that time period. I can't find anything that suggests the NHS budget has doubled since 2010.

From what I can gather, the NHS spending adjusted for inflation increased modestly over the time period.

Taking into account the fact that costs in the healthcare sector have increased more than CPI globally, that increase could well correspond to a decrease in purchasing power.

That doesn't yet take into account the UK specific issues around Brexit.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#128

Post by Haga »

lstamour wrote: post #94
anonporridge wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding after reading this article is that the problem has nothing to do with ambulances or medics. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/20/world/europe/uk-ambulance... First order problem, the hospitals have no beds. This means that ambulances end up waiting for hours and medics twiddling their thumbs at the ER until the staff can finally take the patient. Medics can't just abandon the patient because there lega…

> when Britain's own young people were never going to do that work for the wages offered Too true. I’m from Canada where we worry nurses will go south of the border, but was recently in London at an NHS hospital and was talking about this with a nurse. Pay for nurses in Canada is on par with a Jr Developer here. (Still low for the hours and effort required!) By comparison, nurses in the UK make about as much as an in…

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Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#129

Post by zwirbl »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #86
anonporridge wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding after reading this article is that the problem has nothing to do with ambulances or medics. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/20/world/europe/uk-ambulance... First order problem, the hospitals have no beds. This means that ambulances end up waiting for hours and medics twiddling their thumbs at the ER until the staff can finally take the patient. Medics can't just abandon the patient because there lega…

b) is not exclusive to Britain. A very large portion of the US benefits from poorer countries to the south with high birth rates and porous borders. Probably applies to almost all large developed countries.

In the EU it's the east European countries. Without Bulgarian and Romanian workers the Austrian elderly care system might already have collapsed. There were even highly pucliciced exceptions during strict lockdowns

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#130

Post by MrJohz »

balaji1 wrote: post #105
londons_explore wrote: post #35

In my district in the UK, there were occasions when average wait times for an ambulance for a Category 1 incident (eg. person not breathing) reached 48 hours last month. The target is 90% of patients reached in 15 minutes. Yet the reality is the average wait was 48 hours. I can't see any way that kind of thing isn't contributing to a shorter life expectancy.

How does the caller know an ambulance is coming? How do we know the call didn't end up in a black hole? We see where the driver is on Doordash. Similarly there should be a text message confirmation with a tracking link to the ambulance on the way and the destination hospital.

This is a fine technical solution to a different problem. The issue is not that people don't trust the ambulances, or want to keep track of them to feel more in control. The issue is that there aren't enough ambulances in the first place, not enough beds to put people in when they arrive at hospitals, nor enough people to treat them when they've got a bed.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea in general, but adding tracking to ambulances is not going to magically make them turn up faster.

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