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Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

economist.com

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Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#51

Post by actuator »

epicureanideal wrote: post #40
actuator wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has an existential threat next door and the region where they have to exist and their past drives them to have real ingenuity in innovation. Taiwan and South Korea are modelled after Japan like obedience to authority and way higher tolerance for tough work conditions than a western European nation. Is it realistic to assume that a Brit would work 12 hours in a job? I am not trying to say UK lacks the talent to…

> Taiwan and South Korea are modelled after Japan like obedience to authority and way higher tolerance for tough work conditions than a western European nation. Is it realistic to assume that a Brit would work 12 hours in a job? 1st, historically Western European countries absolutely did work 12 hour days, back when that made any kind of economic sense, despite the human misery it creatd. With modern knowledge work,…

A forced 12 hour work day doesn't make people achieve more, but if you have to compete with others whose output is 1.3x of yours by putting in those extra hours, people will do it with efficiency.

> Although a very very highly educated, very very highly compensated, might choose to work longer hours

Yes, like SV companies are able to do but not sure how this will work in UK.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#52

Post by steve76 »

was_a_dev wrote: post #2

It is well-known that the austerity ushered in by Cameron's new Conservative goverment heavily contributed to excess deaths. After a decade of continued underfunding of public services, leading to a collapsed social and health service, you realise the question really isn't that deep

[dead]

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#53

Post by dirtyid »

actuator wrote: post #12
krysp wrote: post #9

As a Brit I can't help but notice that on every axis, our country appears to be in decline at the moment. Even before Brexit, things hadn't been going well, as this article shows. It's making me seriously consider moving away. I want to have hope that as a country we can turn around this societal regression, but I fear it's a deeper problem than just the current government. The class system and an unhealthy nostalgia…

I am not sure how in a totally integrated free market world, a country like UK can compete with US or China. The amount of funding US can put into new areas like green energy and the internal market and capital it offers is something UK can't compete with. This is why UK origin founders are one of the biggest cohort of immigrant unicorn founders in US. Although, I am not sure where a Brit would move to, if they want…

>British expat would have little problem moving to US,

Yeah it's the lack of integration/internal market/capital that really disadvantages UK who is #3 in scientific output, respectable per capita basis as well. Low switching costs less factor on pure science than ability to commercialize/convert into value add, i.e. actually making stuff. Which others have covered under culture, IMO medium/large sized countries like UK need to work twice as hard for 10% advantage to stay competitive like east Asia. This isn't the 60s anymore where half the globe is rebuilding/playing catchup, it's not enough to just work smart/efficiently when competitors working smart but also _hard_, even if hard is less efficient but eeks out enough extra competitiveness to matter.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#54

Post by kypro »

krysp wrote: post #9

As a Brit I can't help but notice that on every axis, our country appears to be in decline at the moment. Even before Brexit, things hadn't been going well, as this article shows. It's making me seriously consider moving away. I want to have hope that as a country we can turn around this societal regression, but I fear it's a deeper problem than just the current government. The class system and an unhealthy nostalgia…

I'm considering leaving the country as soon as I'm able to also.

The thing that concerns me the most is that I believe many people here have a fundamental misunderstanding of challenges we face as a country, and our class divide seems to contribute to this misunderstanding. As someone who comes from a poorer background and now socialises with people who are fairly affluent it's always surprising to me to see how much misunderstanding exists between the rich and poor in the UK. It's so bad that people often accuse me of lying or have no ability to related to what I'm saying.

I've tried to remain hopeful, but I'm starting to come to accept the answers politicians provide for our problems will always more of the same: higher taxes, more spending, more immigration, etc. If we want go get out of this mess I think we're going to need some new ideas and some very stronger leaders who are willing to make very unpopular decisions.

This isn't xenophobia. I can explain my reasoning here if need be. Have I to say this because some people are likely to assume bad faith.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#55

Post by NegativeLatency »

perardi wrote: post #42
NegativeLatency wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW As a US citizen I feel similarly. The switching cost feels too high to move, as I can't really see myself living somewhere other than the West Coast (family, friends etc) It's a shame humans don't have more empathy and sympathy for each other, and that governments have been so obviously co-opted by the wealthy and powerful for their own benefit. One of the things that does make me feel better is being more invol…

I am curious what country you could move to that isn’t co-opted by the wealthy and powerful. Sure isn’t Canada. Sure isn’t anywhere in the EU. Super-duper-sure it isn’t anywhere in Asia.

I don't know honestly, never been to any of these places and after moving around several times within the US I realize how nice it is to just be setted in one place, but here's what I would consider: Netherlands (I really like biking), Germany (Cologne seems like a nice vibe), France (Probably Paris, Food obviously, but I also really appreciate people's willingness to protest stuff)

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#56

Post by actuator »

epicureanideal wrote: post #37
somewhereoutth wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest it is all about population. Industrial/technological first mover advantage has now gone really. You need the concentration of talent that only drawing from a very large pool can achieve. US, EU, China are the 3 poles at the moment - with Africa and South America as potential for the future if they can get their governance sorted out. The UK stopped being a global power after Suez - not for nothing is Bre…

One counter-argument to this would be: A nation with a 10x higher per capita of truly productive scientists and engineers (with a well functioning R&D system that wasn't just publish-or-perish or other friction that reduces efficiency) would perform roughly as well as a nation with 10x the population. Somewhat but not perfectly analogous to how some countries invest more, or more wisely in their military budget, and…

> So if the UK invested such that it had 10x the per capita scientists and engineers, let's say 10% of the population vs 1%, then it could compete with a nation of 680 million

With the equal outcome approach taking over universities and sciences being considered the unfashionable stream unlike East Asia, how would you do this?

Even if you are able to, why won't these trained people just leave for US when they realise they are compensated more and taxed less there?

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#57

Post by somewhereoutth »

convolvatron wrote: post #39
somewhereoutth wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest it is all about population. Industrial/technological first mover advantage has now gone really. You need the concentration of talent that only drawing from a very large pool can achieve. US, EU, China are the 3 poles at the moment - with Africa and South America as potential for the future if they can get their governance sorted out. The UK stopped being a global power after Suez - not for nothing is Bre…

you could try raising the level of education. breeding a whole bunch of people and hoping some of them teach themselves to be useful isn't really a great way of maximizing intellectual output

certainly education is vital to a modern economy (and society), but I suspect that you hit diminishing returns at our current levels - not many more can really benefit from e.g. post graduate studies. Sending ~50% of school leavers to uni in the UK has arguably been counter productive, as instead of a path for the talented to rise, uni has become more a rubber stamp for entry into the middle class and course content has become diluted (and then loans on top to pay for it all)

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#58

Post by epicureanideal »

actuator wrote: post #56
epicureanideal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counter-argument to this would be: A nation with a 10x higher per capita of truly productive scientists and engineers (with a well functioning R&D system that wasn't just publish-or-perish or other friction that reduces efficiency) would perform roughly as well as a nation with 10x the population. Somewhat but not perfectly analogous to how some countries invest more, or more wisely in their military budget, and…

> So if the UK invested such that it had 10x the per capita scientists and engineers, let's say 10% of the population vs 1%, then it could compete with a nation of 680 million With the equal outcome approach taking over universities and sciences being considered the unfashionable stream unlike East Asia, how would you do this? Even if you are able to, why won't these trained people just leave for US when they realise…

> With the equal outcome approach taking over universities and sciences being considered the unfashionable stream unlike East Asia, how would you do this?

Clearly that approach is harmful and is preventing the economic development of nations, which in turn harms those who need assistance because there’s a smaller tax base.

Re: Why did 250k Britons die sooner than expected?

#60

Post by somewhereoutth »

epicureanideal wrote: post #37
somewhereoutth wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest it is all about population. Industrial/technological first mover advantage has now gone really. You need the concentration of talent that only drawing from a very large pool can achieve. US, EU, China are the 3 poles at the moment - with Africa and South America as potential for the future if they can get their governance sorted out. The UK stopped being a global power after Suez - not for nothing is Bre…

One counter-argument to this would be: A nation with a 10x higher per capita of truly productive scientists and engineers (with a well functioning R&D system that wasn't just publish-or-perish or other friction that reduces efficiency) would perform roughly as well as a nation with 10x the population. Somewhat but not perfectly analogous to how some countries invest more, or more wisely in their military budget, and…

But as other nations 'catch up' and turn out productive scientists and engineers in similar ratios, the disparity in the denominator becomes overwhelming. E.g. China.
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