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Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

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Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#101

Post by naniwaduni »

pge wrote: post #24
nobodyandproud wrote: post #13

The author seems to have an axe to grind. > The need for diversity in education is as vital today as ever. But it’s not clear whether the Ivy Agreement’s ban on athletic scholarships actually promotes that end. One might even wonder whether, by not competing over sports stars, the schools are reducing the diversity of their student bodies. Yet later admits: > But recent research tells us that fielding a great team pr…

The flaw with this statement is that the Ivies absolutely do recruit athletes and allow coaches to prioritize students for acceptance, just like other D1 schools. The only difference is that instead of putting scholarship money in front of them, they dangle an Ivy League degree. If Ivies removed coaches from the admissions process, they would have more integrity.

Also, the fact that they don't explicitly offer athletic scholarships in no way detracts from the fact that they offer scholarships carefully calibrated to what they think the parents can afford to every student they want.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#102

Post by onos »

tophi wrote: post #97
coldtea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, an…

A university is not just a place to go to learn anymore. It’s a big club that happens to be a place where you study. You bond and make lifelong friends. Also a great place to find a partner for life. Athletic departments are vital to the university system in American schools and their local economies.

Agree. A lot of the frustration and confusion here seems to be due to assuming these universities should just serve the smartest kids. The truth is that in practice they provide credentials for both elites and experts, and the former need not be brainiacs.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#103

Post by ouid »

if we're talking about cartels, The NFL using the university system as its private farm team system seems like far more of a problem. Especially given that student athletes are often bringing in large amounts of income to the schools they represent.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#104

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #80
lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

> the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, an…

[deleted]

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#105

Post by Godel_unicode »

coldtea wrote: post #80
lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

> the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, an…

College athletes who are going pro are studying their chosen field just as studiously as any other field (and more than most business/communications majors). Athletes who aren’t going pro, which is most of them, do better than average academically.

Being an athlete isn’t particularly different than getting a minor or a dual major. Just because there’s sweating involved doesn’t make it not a scholarly pursuit, we should stop being such gatekeepers.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#106

Post by Godel_unicode »

naniwaduni wrote: post #101
pge wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw with this statement is that the Ivies absolutely do recruit athletes and allow coaches to prioritize students for acceptance, just like other D1 schools. The only difference is that instead of putting scholarship money in front of them, they dangle an Ivy League degree. If Ivies removed coaches from the admissions process, they would have more integrity.

Also, the fact that they don't explicitly offer athletic scholarships in no way detracts from the fact that they offer scholarships carefully calibrated to what they think the parents can afford to every student they want.

Or how the alumni network will show up to give scholarships to prospects who are on the fence. “Oh, you’re thinking about that full ride from State huh? Well wouldn’t you know it, the Smiths just told me they really want to endow a scholarship…”

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#107

Post by grogenaut »

musicale wrote: post #84
whimsicalism wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But very few at Yale etc. pay full sticker. it’s basically perfect price discrimination you have to have a very affluent family to pay full sticker at Yale or Harvard.

Are you suggesting that doubling tuition didn't actually put more money in Yale's pockets? Yale currently takes in some $475 million in tuition, room and board. In 1990 the number was $165M, equivalent to about $378M today.

How is $475 2x $378?

At 14,567 students that's 32,607 each. Website says tuition is 59,950.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#108

Post by oarabbus_ »

flerchin wrote: post #49
ccooffee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different from a HomeOwner's Association (HOA) enforcing community standards? I don't understand the linked article (or your) point about this being some sort of illegal collusion. Can you help me understand how this is fundamentally different from an HOA enforcing things like "no boat parking"?

The schools offer competing services for the consumers. They've all agreed to not compete for certain consumers in the same way. Does that help you? An HOA is not an appropriate metaphor.

I don't see how this clarifies that it's not a appropriate metaphor.

There are hundreds of schools or more that _do_ compete for consumers in that way. Similarly, HOAs in some areas may restrict boat parking. Other HOAs however, will allow it. Why is the metaphor not appropriate?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#109

Post by Kon-Peki »

grogenaut wrote: post #96
whimsicalism wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience at an Ivy, these things often dovetail because of the types of sports they choose to recruit (outside of football & basketball) tend to be of the decidedly more squash, crew, equestrian sports, etc. that bias towards new england elites.

I mean what sports outside of Football/Baseball/Basketball/Soccer don't bias towards the elites? These most popular sports are cheap and easy to play except contact football. You can play them in every park, with less than $100 of gear. They're very accessible. There's also Track and Field, which generally you can do cheaply and anywhere. After that you start getting restrictions on where you can do them and what it…

Hockey equipment is expensive once you get older. For young kids it is free/cheap. FYI, in most of the US, the NHL will buy your boy or girl their first set of equipment. Search for your nearest NHL team along with the words "Learn to Play" - sign up for a session at your nearest rink. Around me, it's the Chicago Blackhawks and they have sessions at rinks in Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa. Some are even girls-only. But anyway, the used sporting equipment stores near those rinks will be overflowing with hockey equipment for really young kids.

In other words, it doesn't get expensive until after your kid has really decided they want to do it.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#110

Post by coldtea »

tophi wrote: post #97
coldtea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else. It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, an…

A university is not just a place to go to learn anymore. It’s a big club that happens to be a place where you study. You bond and make lifelong friends. Also a great place to find a partner for life. Athletic departments are vital to the university system in American schools and their local economies.

>A university is not just a place to go to learn anymore. It’s a big club that happens to be a place where you study.

Yes. That should stop.

>Athletic departments are vital to the university system in American schools and their local economies.

That too.

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