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Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

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Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#71

Post by dylan604 »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #56
flerchin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The schools offer competing services for the consumers. They've all agreed to not compete for certain consumers in the same way. Does that help you? An HOA is not an appropriate metaphor.

A university shouldn’t be in the business of competition for athletic stars. Let NBA and other sports organizations do that. They may open their own sports schools and whatnot.

>They may open their own sports schools and whatnot.

why would they open themselves up to those kinds of expenses and liabilities when their feeder systems are working just fine for them now?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#72

Post by somat »

gptgpp wrote: post #44
hnuser847 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You act as if governments throughout history haven’t committed atrocities a thousands times more gruesome than this. I’m fact, I can think of a fairly famous example within the past hundred years.

Come on, give examples please don't leave me hanging! I think the Mafia are sick fucks, but lots of governments have been too. No shortage of violence in this pit of animals on this stupid space rock. But thousands of times more gruesome than that!? That's wild. I've watched Cartel vids where they slice open and expose the vocal cords laterally as their victims wail, creating otherworldly sounds. But that's like... M…

Take china for example, How many families/people/children were tortured and killed when the japanese invaded manchuria. That is an invasion, you may say, it does not count, ok, Now look at how many more than that were tortured and killed in chairman mao's cultural revolution.

The scale at which modern governments operate makes all of organized crime look like child's play. The quote "A single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" Is particularly apt here.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#73

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

whimsicalism wrote: post #47
kevinventullo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I’d prefer admission of an athlete who prioritizes an Ivy League degree over money to admission of one more silver-spoon legacy.

In my experience at an Ivy, these things often dovetail because of the types of sports they choose to recruit (outside of football & basketball) tend to be of the decidedly more squash, crew, equestrian sports, etc. that bias towards new england elites.

From a non-US perspective the idea that top universities recruit athletic talent at all is really quite strange.

There are some athletic scholarships at Oxford and Cambridge, but they're not at all mainstream in the way athletics seems to be in the US.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#74

Post by tedunangst »

stale2002 wrote: post #59
ccooffee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different from a HomeOwner's Association (HOA) enforcing community standards? I don't understand the linked article (or your) point about this being some sort of illegal collusion. Can you help me understand how this is fundamentally different from an HOA enforcing things like "no boat parking"?

> How is this different from a HomeOwner's Association (HOA) enforcing community standards? This is a horrible comparison. Ivy league schools are competiting businesses in a market. Much different than a group of homes, which really aren't directly competing in a market. (even though, I am sure you can twist an argument that they are. They really aren't. Most people are not trying to sell their homes, and there are a…

> Because 1 ivy league school should have no business forcing a different school on the other side of the country on how they run their business

Fortunately, all the Ivy League schools are on the same side, in same corner even, of the country.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#75

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

sandkoan wrote: post #63
whimsicalism wrote: post #55

Surprised the article does not discuss the much more impactful fact that Ivy’s coordinate to not provide merit scholarships . Columbia does a bit of defection on the side that is tolerated, but otherwise there are no merit scholarships for Ivy league students.

The Ivies and adjacent elite colleges are more than capable of giving out academic scholarships—they simply refuse to because that would lead to a race to the bottom in terms of how much money they'd be able to extract from top talent (who could easily negotiate colleges against each other for lower and lower tuition). And, from experience, Colubmia's defection hardly counts for much (which is why, I suspect, it's pe…

This is totally ridiculous; virtually all of the Ivies offer need-blind funding; if you're admitted, then you're going to get whatever amount of scholarship you need to go.

You can look at Yale's details here: https://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability ... e.g. virtually all families earning less than $75K per year will get a full-ride plus a $2,000 grant in the first year.

Are you seriously criticizing the Ivies decision to prioritize scholarships on the basis of financial need?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#76

Post by fiftyfifty »

lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

This is absolutely spot on. Don't forget sailing, tennis, lacrosse, and some Ivy League schools even offer equestrian. Even sports like swimming, hockey, and volleyball are getting to be more and more dominated by well-to-do kids from families that can afford expensive traveling club teams. When Brown tried to eliminate its men's track and field team a few years ago the decision was reversed when it was pointed out that track and field was one of the only sports adding diversity to the campus.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#77

Post by lordnacho »

gptgpp wrote: post #44
hnuser847 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You act as if governments throughout history haven’t committed atrocities a thousands times more gruesome than this. I’m fact, I can think of a fairly famous example within the past hundred years.

Come on, give examples please don't leave me hanging! I think the Mafia are sick fucks, but lots of governments have been too. No shortage of violence in this pit of animals on this stupid space rock. But thousands of times more gruesome than that!? That's wild. I've watched Cartel vids where they slice open and expose the vocal cords laterally as their victims wail, creating otherworldly sounds. But that's like... M…

Have you seen those pyramids made of human skulls in Cambodia?

I think the scale of the brutality matters a lot, and governments can get bigger scale.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#78

Post by metadat »

musicale wrote: post #62
whimsicalism wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it was marked dead. replying to flame bait comments is precisely what HN tries to avoid when it does that, but you found your workaround :)

Hmm, I don't think I would have been quite as quick to hit the flag button. The (now missing?) PP comment to me read "probably couldn't get into an Ivy" with the crux being that Stanford is of course not part of the Ivy League. (But Yale Law School is certainly part of Yale, though iirc it's rare for graduate or professional students to play in the NCAA due to eligibility.) Sometimes people forget that the Ivy League…

On your profile page there is a setting called "Show dead", enable it if you want to see the skeleton threads.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#79

Post by AtlasBarfed »

Need blind admissions at my alma mater died 25 years ago. Were the Ivy's still pretending they weren't? That's actually good news.

Oh, you aren't blowing money on ancillary things like big time college football and other academics-undermining activiites? Sounds like a smart move by the Ivy League.

The Ivys have been admitting scions and the like under the table? You don't say. Does that provide the Ivys with prominent influential alumni and the like? Yep. Is EVERYONE else with even a remotely significant reputation doing this with rich Chinese and others? I know all the Big10 is.

Christ, the CARTEL is the NCAA not paying EMPLOYEES what likely is 1? 10? 100? 1000? BILLIONS that could have been made by revenue NCAA athletes over the last 50 years. Now THAT is a cartel worth writing about. In football, they likely left a million students or more with lifelong injuries with no healthcare or compensation that played big time football for the bowl schools.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#80

Post by coldtea »

lofatdairy wrote: post #60

Cui bono? There are a lot of problems with the Ivy League, the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots. The author seems to be under the mistaken belief that most of these slots would be available for your football and basketball players, where stories of rising from pove…

>the lack of athletic scholarships are one of the few things they do absolutely right. The thing is that athletics are less, not more democratic as a distribution mechanism for admission slots

A more basic problem with "athletic scholarships" is that being an athlete has absolutely nothing to do with being an academic/scholar/student of something else.

It might be a good way to bring some publicity to the school, and to make it have a strong team. But it has absolutely nothing to do with a school's intended purpose (except the "make money" purpose).

Athletic scholarships should only be a thing in sports academies - where you're trained to be a coach, a PE teacher, or a related academic in some of those areas.

In fact, universities and colleges should just have clubs to play sports informally, at the same level they have a music playing club, or a gym, or a cooking club. Like in the rest of the civilized (on that matter at least) world.

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