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Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

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Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#41

Post by gptgpp »

As the premier Ivy League authority on the inner-workings of Cartels, I can definitively say that our illustrious Ivy League institutions only happen to appear like a Cartel to the very, very stupid and uneducated (eg. People who couldn't attend).

It is quite an amazing psycho-social phenomena, inextricably linked to a low SES and impoverished social capital; I hope to secure a grant to make my PhD students shit out a bunch of papers with my name on it soon.

Don't worry, all the confounding variables have been accounted for. We can't release any raw data though, so sorry but it's to protect confidentiality. Could we reasonably anonymize the data? Oh nooooo, I'm so sorry you're breaking u --

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#42

Post by ccooffee »

stale2002 wrote: post #39
nobodyandproud wrote: post #13

The author seems to have an axe to grind. > The need for diversity in education is as vital today as ever. But it’s not clear whether the Ivy Agreement’s ban on athletic scholarships actually promotes that end. One might even wonder whether, by not competing over sports stars, the schools are reducing the diversity of their student bodies. Yet later admits: > But recent research tells us that fielding a great team pr…

You are missing the point. It is not a problem of an individual school refusing to give academic scholarships. Instead the problem is the schools all agreeing together to do this. By all means, let each university individually choose if they want to allow scholarships or not, with zero agreement between the schools.

How is this different from a HomeOwner's Association (HOA) enforcing community standards?

I don't understand the linked article (or your) point about this being some sort of illegal collusion. Can you help me understand how this is fundamentally different from an HOA enforcing things like "no boat parking"?

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#43

Post by musicale »

It was always baffling to me that collusion on financial aid wasn't illegal (also note that it's not just the Ivies that are involved.)

I find this particularly interesting:

"But the 3rd Circuit’s 1993 rationale isn’t helpful to the Ivies today. Back then, the court rejected the government’s accusation that the schools’ cooperation on financial aid increased tuition for other students. But subsequent work has concluded that the government was probably right."

Over the past 30 years, universities have absolutely continued to raise tuition and fees beyond the rate of inflation. They have increased the size of university administrations and enhanced campus facilities and services to some extent, but the educational benefit isn't as clear, while student loan debt has ballooned.

Tuition at Yale (for example) was about $15K in 1993 (equivalent to around $31K today.) In 2023 Yale's tuition is more than $64K.

I'd like to hear Yale's explanation of how this is possibly sensible.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#44

Post by gptgpp »

hnuser847 wrote: post #38
gptgpp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I am so sorry... It must be really difficult living in an area of the world where the Government tortures your child, dismembers them with a chainsaw, and dissolves them in a barrel of acid if you don't pay your taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupara_bianca#Examples :(

You act as if governments throughout history haven’t committed atrocities a thousands times more gruesome than this. I’m fact, I can think of a fairly famous example within the past hundred years.

Come on, give examples please don't leave me hanging! I think the Mafia are sick fucks, but lots of governments have been too. No shortage of violence in this pit of animals on this stupid space rock.

But thousands of times more gruesome than that!? That's wild. I've watched Cartel vids where they slice open and expose the vocal cords laterally as their victims wail, creating otherworldly sounds.

But that's like... MAYBE 0.5x as gruesome as torturing some poor helpless child or tossing infant into a barrel of acid. So if you've got stuff that's 1000x as gruesome, I can't even comprehend! Please post.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#45

Post by bjourne »

BurningFrog wrote: post #27
TrackerFF wrote: post #25

Athletic scholarships is one of those very foreign concepts, for us outside the US. Seems like a uniquely (North) American thing?

That and the institution of the "college application essay". Does any other country have that?

China has it...

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#46

Post by jstx1 »

jalla wrote: post #33
TrackerFF wrote: post #25

Athletic scholarships is one of those very foreign concepts, for us outside the US. Seems like a uniquely (North) American thing?

Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial College in the UK admit students and provide benefits, scholarships and bursaries to people that are considered world class rowing talent, quietly and unofficially. Many European countries have special programs for sports talents to develop and receive economic benefits whilst serving military service and/or seeking higher education. Most people don't know anything about these programs…

Also because they aren't nearly as common. Just because this exists in some form outside of the US doesnt mean that it happens at the same scale.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#47

Post by whimsicalism »

kevinventullo wrote: post #29
pge wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw with this statement is that the Ivies absolutely do recruit athletes and allow coaches to prioritize students for acceptance, just like other D1 schools. The only difference is that instead of putting scholarship money in front of them, they dangle an Ivy League degree. If Ivies removed coaches from the admissions process, they would have more integrity.

Honestly I’d prefer admission of an athlete who prioritizes an Ivy League degree over money to admission of one more silver-spoon legacy.

In my experience at an Ivy, these things often dovetail because of the types of sports they choose to recruit (outside of football & basketball) tend to be of the decidedly more squash, crew, equestrian sports, etc. that bias towards new england elites.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#48

Post by whimsicalism »

musicale wrote: post #43

It was always baffling to me that collusion on financial aid wasn't illegal (also note that it's not just the Ivies that are involved.) I find this particularly interesting: "But the 3rd Circuit’s 1993 rationale isn’t helpful to the Ivies today. Back then, the court rejected the government’s accusation that the schools’ cooperation on financial aid increased tuition for other students. But subsequent work has conclud…

But very few at Yale etc. pay full sticker. it’s basically perfect price discrimination

you have to have a very affluent family to pay full sticker at Yale or Harvard.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#49

Post by flerchin »

ccooffee wrote: post #42
stale2002 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. It is not a problem of an individual school refusing to give academic scholarships. Instead the problem is the schools all agreeing together to do this. By all means, let each university individually choose if they want to allow scholarships or not, with zero agreement between the schools.

How is this different from a HomeOwner's Association (HOA) enforcing community standards? I don't understand the linked article (or your) point about this being some sort of illegal collusion. Can you help me understand how this is fundamentally different from an HOA enforcing things like "no boat parking"?

The schools offer competing services for the consumers. They've all agreed to not compete for certain consumers in the same way. Does that help you? An HOA is not an appropriate metaphor.

Re: Ivy League Schools Sure Look Like a Cartel

#50

Post by whimsicalism »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #36
marcosdumay wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is common everywhere to require essays during the college evaluation process, but I don't understand well enough what is the US's "college application essay" to compare.

In the US you write an essay to send to the college with your application, about why you should be accepted. I don’t know of anywhere else that has anything like it. Edit: examples https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2019...

Oxford certainly has it when i applied.
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