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Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

citoyens.soquij.qc.ca

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Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#31

Post by SkeuomorphicBee »

cldellow wrote: post #19
colpabar wrote: post #5

I know saying "fuck the police" is an overused cliche at this point but how the fuck can anyone have any respect for the police as a whole when this is the shit they do? In canada they arrest you for a hand gesture and in america they arrest you for letting your children walk outside. How could any sane member of society go to a person's house and arrest them for these things? And they still have the nerve to complai…

TBH, I think the conduct of the cops is fine here. If someone alleges that the other party is making death threats, I want them to investigate. It's not alleged that the cops mistreated Mr. Epstein. Obviously being arrested is traumatic, but the fault here lies with the unhinged neighbour, who will hopefully be prosecuted. What's beyond the pale for me is that the Crown prosecutor brought the lawsuit at all. She's ev…

If all the police did was investigate, then their conduct would have been fine. But they arrested him, and that is not adequate conduct.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#32

Post by skeaker »

matbilodeau wrote: post #2

Court decision http://citoyens.soquij.qc.ca/php/decision.php?ID=B4064956004...

This was a much more entertaining read than the link the OP, in my opinion. I didn't realize official court documents could have such an attitude. The guy that wrote this fuckin hates the complainants and it shows, hahaha

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#33

Post by majormajor »

UncleEntity wrote: post #14
belval wrote: post #8

If you look past the headline, this story is almost "basic sanity". The guy's neighbour didn't want the accused's kids playing in the street (in the suburbs) because they have a yard. To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. The accused flipped him off and (allegedly because he denies it) threatened him. Now frankly, I don't see why this would be hackernews-worthy,…

> To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. It probably is dangerous [0] because people don’t let their kids play in the street anymore so drivers aren’t used to having them there. Not like when I was a kid where we would get ball games going and pause to let the cars pass. People expected kids to be playing in the street so didn’t drive like complete lunatics. Can’…

There are a few different places within a few blocks of me where there are basketball hoops set up facing the street, so the street is the court. All on side streets, seems like it hasn't been a big problem. Some of them have been there for years at this point.

Not even that far out in the burbs. Mixes of ~5ish story apartment buildings, commercial, and SFH homes for miles in all directions.

Seems like "are people used to people being in the street" is very area-specific. If this was all 5+ story mixed-use apartment developments, like a few miles north? Yeah, you don't see it as much there. On the other hand, if it was even less developed, with basically no non-local through traffic? I've seen even more.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#34

Post by snozolli »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #22
belval wrote: post #8

If you look past the headline, this story is almost "basic sanity". The guy's neighbour didn't want the accused's kids playing in the street (in the suburbs) because they have a yard. To "prove" his point that it was dangerous he drove recklessly around the kids in the street. The accused flipped him off and (allegedly because he denies it) threatened him. Now frankly, I don't see why this would be hackernews-worthy,…

I would posit that common sense is the antithesis to government. Consider children whose parents are arrested for letting them walk to the park, or the woman arrested for silently praying, in her head, while standing in front of an abortion clinic. Prosecutorial abuse is equally, if not more of a crisis in the world, than police abusing their arrest powers.

or the woman arrested for silently praying, in her head, while standing in front of an abortion clinic.

Hmm... Looks like this happened in the UK:

The video shows an officer asking Vaughan-Spruce if she was praying, to which she answers: “I might be praying in my head.”

She was charged Dec. 15 with four counts of breaking a Public Space Protection Order (PSPO) around the abortion facility. A PSPO is intended to stop antisocial behavior.

Source: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253187/woman-arreste...

The Public Spaces Protection Order is here:

https://www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk/Communities/PSPOs/Ophir-Road-a...

Some background on the protective order:

https://www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk/news-article.aspx?title=decisi...

So, they had so many problems that the local council put an order in place, with overwhelming public support. The woman then violated the order and even indicated that she was violating the order, by choice, all so she can play the victim.

Now it's being spun as "thought crime" so that they don't have to take responsibility for their abhorrent behavior and continue to pretend to be the ones who are victimized.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#35

Post by majormajor »

mywittyname wrote: post #25
Overtonwindow wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would posit that common sense is the antithesis to government. Consider children whose parents are arrested for letting them walk to the park, or the woman arrested for silently praying, in her head, while standing in front of an abortion clinic. Prosecutorial abuse is equally, if not more of a crisis in the world, than police abusing their arrest powers.

I have a conflicting opinions on this post. On one hand, I loathe the use of "the government" as though it is some sort of monoblock. There are plenty of people who get into public service as a way to tangibly improve society and the lives of the people. OTOH, you are right that too many people get away with abusing their powers.

The "some abuses make it worth scrapping the whole thing" thesis is just pure folly.

Two parallel possible spins on that:

"Restrict the government since otherwise people will abuse government power."

"Have a lot of rules and regulations since otherwise people will abuse individual liberties."

Both of these make just as much sense on paper to me. On one hand you have examples of government harassment; on the other hand you have people literally being willing to sell other people poison to make a buck.

The problem in both cases is the people, not the system.

I've come to the thinking that you have to build societal values from the bottom up. You aren't gonna lawyer your way to a perfect system if you are still fostering an environment that encourages people to ignore that system, resist it, and take advantage of each other.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#37

Post by cldellow »

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #31
cldellow wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH, I think the conduct of the cops is fine here. If someone alleges that the other party is making death threats, I want them to investigate. It's not alleged that the cops mistreated Mr. Epstein. Obviously being arrested is traumatic, but the fault here lies with the unhinged neighbour, who will hopefully be prosecuted. What's beyond the pale for me is that the Crown prosecutor brought the lawsuit at all. She's ev…

If all the police did was investigate, then their conduct would have been fine. But they arrested him, and that is not adequate conduct.

On the one hand, knowing what we know now, I certainly agree it would be preferable if he wasn't arrested.

On the other hand, the neighbour had made at least 4 reports to the police about harassment and death threats. I believe the neighbour's brother and parents had also spoken to the police in support of these claims. On the day of the arrest, the neighbour had _just_ made the most serious claim yet--about death threats.

Given that context, I can understand why the police legally have the right to arrest, and would be willing to arrest.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#38

Post by nostromo »

snozolli wrote: post #34
Overtonwindow wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would posit that common sense is the antithesis to government. Consider children whose parents are arrested for letting them walk to the park, or the woman arrested for silently praying, in her head, while standing in front of an abortion clinic. Prosecutorial abuse is equally, if not more of a crisis in the world, than police abusing their arrest powers.

or the woman arrested for silently praying, in her head, while standing in front of an abortion clinic. Hmm... Looks like this happened in the UK: The video shows an officer asking Vaughan-Spruce if she was praying, to which she answers: “I might be praying in my head.” She was charged Dec. 15 with four counts of breaking a Public Space Protection Order (PSPO) around the abortion facility. A PSPO is intended to stop…

> abhorrent behavior

How can any sane person watch this video and say her behavior was "abhorrent?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6E105a58p8

Videos like this make me so thankful for the US constitution.

Re: Giving the finger is a ‘God-given right’, Canadian judge rules

#40

Post by marcosdumay »

majormajor wrote: post #35
mywittyname wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a conflicting opinions on this post. On one hand, I loathe the use of "the government" as though it is some sort of monoblock. There are plenty of people who get into public service as a way to tangibly improve society and the lives of the people. OTOH, you are right that too many people get away with abusing their powers.

The "some abuses make it worth scrapping the whole thing" thesis is just pure folly. Two parallel possible spins on that: "Restrict the government since otherwise people will abuse government power." "Have a lot of rules and regulations since otherwise people will abuse individual liberties." Both of these make just as much sense on paper to me. On one hand you have examples of government harassment; on the other han…

> I've come to the thinking that you have to build societal values from the bottom up.

And one way to build those values is by writing some basic rules down, communicating them to everybody, and enforce them. You will never have every single person refraining from taking advantage of something.

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