Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#141

Post by nextaccountic » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

vishnugupta wrote: post #18

jmann99999 wrote: post #5

I have very little understanding of India. While reading the article, it sounds like the changes to Indian labor law would enable more hours to be worked. However, I don't understand whether this is a good or bad thing for the average worker (and/or woman) in India. Can someone provide more insight? Thanks.

I don’t know the finer details, but if they are proportionately paid more this is definitely a big step in the right direction for women workers. In general, women participation in workforce is outright abysmal in India. Hopefully this will be on of the many small steps towards addressing that.

> if they are proportionately paid more

Apple and Foxconn wants to pay them less (in particular, pay less overtime)

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#142

Post by ROTMetro » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #38

jedberg wrote: post #21

So from what I can tell, it sounds like this is a win for women in India. They were restricted from working as long as men (and still are?) so they couldn't make as much money as men. I mostly post this because my initial reaction was "oh they made it easier to abuse them!" but it sounds like that's not actually the case, which is a bit of a relief.

I think the main takeaway is that India (well, in the state of Karnataka, population 64M) now allows 60 hour work weeks for non-salaried people of both genders. Not as an exception, but as an average. And that Apple was behind this. It's pretty hard to view this as a positive change.

Ding ding ding! Crazy people don't get this and defend this as totally normal ignoring this company has actual suicide prevention nets to prevent their employees from killing themselves because the companies employment practices at that friggen aweful!

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#143

Post by snozolli » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #97

https://nypost.com/2020/12/15/riots-at-apple-plant-in-india-... this is what apple does. they use their clout, then they turn their back and play ignorant whilst placing unrealistic demands on the subcontractors who then place those demand on the labour. from: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/02/14/only-half-of-indian-iph... > 'Apple engineers told that Chinese iPhone suppliers and government officials have a "whatever…

this is what apple does. they use their clout, then they turn their back and play ignorant whilst placing unrealistic demands on the subcontractors

While making $30 billion in profit for the first quarter of 2023. Apparently, this disappointed Wall Street, because they made $34.6 billion in Q1 2022.

So, time to squeeze the vise on the little people.

Also, they have $165 billion in cash and securities. Maybe they could just physically crush underperforming workers using gold bars.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#144

Post by throw93 » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

It’s always race to the bottom for workers when multiple states are fighting for iPhone factory. They drop the labor protections, drop minimum wages($2-3 per day), increase working hours. It’s just a win for Apple and nobody else(maybe politicians). All this for a bigger screen to watch TikTok on. What a sad time we live in.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#145

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #48

My mom works 12 hour shifts as a CNC machinist in the United States. Is there some point to this article or is it just neat to know?

12 hour shifts, and night shifts for anything but emergency services are inhumane.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/18/us-workers-n...

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#146

Post by fnordpiglet » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

ROTMetro wrote: post #127

fnordpiglet wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. We wouldn’t want women to be able to earn as much as men in India. It’s important to take a principled stand against gender parity and punish these guys with your wallet.

We don't want people crippled from abusive levels of hours doing a task at high risk of repetitive stress injury just so that Apple doesn't have to deal with shift changes. They are trading lifetime quality of life issues for their workers (who don't have much other option) for a reduction in shift changes. As someone whose been at the bottom and seen as throway sorting trash at a recycling facility and whose hands s…

Sorry, but men were already allowed to work these hours and shifts. It was women who weren’t. The shifts still conform to standard work week in India (48 hours). 12 hour shifts are not uncommon anywhere, and they come with generally better pay and more contiguous time off, which can be more meaningful to some people than more time off in a single day. I feel like perhaps the clickbait headline worked and it may be there’s not much of a story here other than women being granted equal footing with men in the labor market.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#147

Post by geodel » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #123

geodel wrote: post #115

Well, Apple/Foxconn gonna do Apple/Foxconn. But India really needs to look at growing unemployment problem for its massive population. Working hours need to be set like 30-40h a week. It helps nation (not necessarily companies) in two ways: 1) Employees to not get overworked as a rule. 2) Companies can hire more employees and run more shifts if they need 24/7 work. Right now there are huge number of young people sitt…

If Foxconn is going to follow the campus model, which is likely because Apple manufacturing cities draws labour from across country, that means building infra to house 2x-3x more workers, especially during surge production for new launches. Reality is it's a low margin business and Taiwanese companies have decades learning to squeeze blood from stone, hence their reputation of being slave drivers across Asia for a re…

Agree on all points. I feel in larger picture it is not just that China is geopolitical risk out of nowhere. The demographics of China is changing and they themselves do not want 12 hour slave labor type of jobs as much as they would in last few decades.

With India's still growing population and unimaginative political class the only model to follow is Chinese model of past. And these Foxconn factories are example of that.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#148

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:50 PM UTC

snozolli wrote: post #143

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #97

https://nypost.com/2020/12/15/riots-at-apple-plant-in-india-... this is what apple does. they use their clout, then they turn their back and play ignorant whilst placing unrealistic demands on the subcontractors who then place those demand on the labour. from: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/02/14/only-half-of-indian-iph... > 'Apple engineers told that Chinese iPhone suppliers and government officials have a "whatever…

this is what apple does. they use their clout, then they turn their back and play ignorant whilst placing unrealistic demands on the subcontractors While making $30 billion in profit for the first quarter of 2023. Apparently, this disappointed Wall Street, because they made $34.6 billion in Q1 2022. So, time to squeeze the vise on the little people. Also, they have $165 billion in cash and securities. Maybe they coul…

> vise

Alternative spelling of vice. News to me.

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#149

Post by JustSomeNobody » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #118

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #116

Vote with your dollars, people. Don't buy Apple and Foxconn products if you care about the wellbeing of workers.

True. We wouldn’t want women to be able to earn as much as men in India. It’s important to take a principled stand against gender parity and punish these guys with your wallet.

Hmmm there's a logical fallacy in there just waiting to be unearthed... I feel it...

Re: Apple and Foxconn win permission for 12-hour shifts for women in India

#150

Post by YeahNO » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #130

cwmma wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see this in hospitals too and I believe the rational there is that you want to reduce the number of shift changes. In a manufacturing context where you might need to shut down the line in order to change shifts it might be a big money saver to only have to do that twice a day even if you're paying out overtime.

Except that rationale has time and time again shown itself to be horseshit, and doctors would be better off with more shifts (so they weren't overtired like half of their shift and therefore making mistakes) and better processes for hand offs.

It only makes medical error and accidents in US hospitals the 3rd leading cause of death, estimated at more than 250,000 deaths per year. But the hedge fund managing hospitals around the country save so much money by not having to hire sufficient staff and have reasonable shift turn-overs they all got bonuses, so it's all good.