Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad • Hacker News Board

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#31

Post by DoreenMichele » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:34 AM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #30

DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships. Let me reframe that: If there is no hope she will ever say "yes", he knows that and pursues her anyway , he is a stalker , not a hopeless romantic.

That's just not what stalking means. It's a pretty serious crime with a real definition, not just "I don't like somebody" or "they hurt my feelings" or whatever. You're free to call it creepy or frightening or anything else, it's just not what stalking is though. You've made up your own definition of the word.

According to the US DOJ:

The term “stalking” means engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress.

https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking

At some point, someone told me (to my surprise -- they were rebutting some comment I made online) that horror movies tend to have mostly female audiences. A lot of horror movies have plot lines that sound a fair amount like stalking or some exaggerated fantasy version of stalking.

A lot of women suffer substantial emotional distress and fear for their own safety due to the behavior of men they know who will not give it a rest. Men tend to be bigger than women, outweigh them, have a strength advantage, are more likely to have combat training or martial arts classes, etc.

One article I read years ago indicated that when asked what they most feared from a woman, men feared being laughed at. Women feared being killed (by men).

Men may not be comfortable hearing that their behavior can be taken as threatening and scary to women when they think they are just being "a hopeless romantic." But I am absolutely not making up my own definition of anything.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#32

Post by throwawaylinux » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:58 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #31

throwawaylinux wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not what stalking means. It's a pretty serious crime with a real definition, not just "I don't like somebody" or "they hurt my feelings" or whatever. You're free to call it creepy or frightening or anything else, it's just not what stalking is though. You've made up your own definition of the word.

According to the US DOJ: The term “stalking” means engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress. https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking At some point, someone told me (to my surprise -- they were rebutting some comment I made online) that horror movies tend to have mostly…

"I have decided that woman is 'out of his league', therefore the fact he appears to be pursuing a relationship with her causes me to fear for her safety" would not meet the reasonable person test.

To be clear I wasn't challenging you on how you personally feel, you don't need to justify that to me. And I'm not being pejorative or trying to say your feelings are less valid with "reasonable", just following the legal term.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#33

Post by DoreenMichele » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 6:13 AM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #32

DoreenMichele wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the US DOJ: The term “stalking” means engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress. https://www.justice.gov/ovw/stalking At some point, someone told me (to my surprise -- they were rebutting some comment I made online) that horror movies tend to have mostly…

"I have decided that woman is 'out of his league', therefore the fact he appears to be pursuing a relationship with her causes me to fear for her safety" would not meet the reasonable person test. To be clear I wasn't challenging you on how you personally feel, you don't need to justify that to me. And I'm not being pejorative or trying to say your feelings are less valid with "reasonable", just following the legal t…

I didn't decide she was out of his league.

His own statements indicate he pursued her with a tenacity he did not believe himself capable of, in spite of his first attempt to chat her up going badly. At no point does he appear to have had any success in establishing some kind of romantic relationship to her.

She was far from the only person in this tale to extend him forbearance on the strength of his empty promise that he would get Brando.

The title of the piece mirrors the title of Waiting for Godot, a play in which everyone's thoughts, discussions and actions revolve around a character who never shows up. Brando never showed up but was the reason so many doors opened for the author.

He offered her a leading role at a young age, a role she told him she had always wanted to play. There is no evidence his interest in her was ever reciprocated.

He did this movie largely to have an excuse to remain in contact with her, apparently having no prior experience in the industry. If that isn't targeting her in specific, I don't know what is.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#34

Post by throwawaylinux » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 6:43 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #33

throwawaylinux wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have decided that woman is 'out of his league', therefore the fact he appears to be pursuing a relationship with her causes me to fear for her safety" would not meet the reasonable person test. To be clear I wasn't challenging you on how you personally feel, you don't need to justify that to me. And I'm not being pejorative or trying to say your feelings are less valid with "reasonable", just following the legal t…

I didn't decide she was out of his league. His own statements indicate he pursued her with a tenacity he did not believe himself capable of, in spite of his first attempt to chat her up going badly. At no point does he appear to have had any success in establishing some kind of romantic relationship to her. She was far from the only person in this tale to extend him forbearance on the strength of his empty promise th…

You did decide that, pursuing someone with tenacity doesn't mean there is no chance, you just decided it. In any case it really is immaterial to whether or not he's a stalker anyway. Even if he did believe he had little or no chance, even if he had little or no chance, that still doesn't mean he can't try. There does not have to be any evidence his interest was reciprocated. It doesn't matter that he tried to make a movie for her to win her affection. This isn't stalking.

You can't just pick words out of the statute and fit them to thought or behavior. "Targeting" -- of course you can "target" a specific person for a friendship or relationship. That isn't stalking, how else are you going to do it? You have to apply the entire test, and "reasonable person" is one of big ones here.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#35

Post by DoreenMichele » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 6:50 AM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #34

DoreenMichele wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't decide she was out of his league. His own statements indicate he pursued her with a tenacity he did not believe himself capable of, in spite of his first attempt to chat her up going badly. At no point does he appear to have had any success in establishing some kind of romantic relationship to her. She was far from the only person in this tale to extend him forbearance on the strength of his empty promise th…

You did decide that, pursuing someone with tenacity doesn't mean there is no chance, you just decided it. In any case it really is immaterial to whether or not he's a stalker anyway. Even if he did believe he had little or no chance, even if he had little or no chance, that still doesn't mean he can't try. There does not have to be any evidence his interest was reciprocated. It doesn't matter that he tried to make a…

You are conflating two things:

A general observation I made that If there is no hope she will ever say "yes", he knows that and pursues her anyway, he is a stalker, not a hopeless romantic. and my original statement that the author sounds like borderline a stalker.

At no point did I assert definitively that the author was clearly a stalker. If it looks that way to you, that's perhaps because this is an overwhelmingly male forum and I am getting a lot of replies essentially fairly strongly shooting me down and I happen to be choosing to reply to many of those replies to me.

That's kind of an unfortunate numbers game on HN and it's sometimes a no-win situation if a woman chooses to make a remark on an issue of this sort and it happens to get a lot of push back.

At this point, you are implying that I am not a "reasonable person" and you are doubling down on insisting I did things that I never did. That's veering into territory that the guidelines suggest should be avoided and I am stepping away from this conversation.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#36

Post by Simon_O_Rourke » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 6:58 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #2

I'm impressed with the networking flex that runs through this article

That's how the world works! The article is crammed full of these little remarks like "then I visited my uncle, who was a billionaire and played polo with the prime minister of Greece". Folks like that don't need jobs!

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#37

Post by watwut » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:28 AM UTC

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #36

gumby wrote: post #2

I'm impressed with the networking flex that runs through this article

That's how the world works! The article is crammed full of these little remarks like "then I visited my uncle, who was a billionaire and played polo with the prime minister of Greece". Folks like that don't need jobs!

Yeah, but it is unusual to talk openly about it. Nowdays, everyone prefers to pretend totally everything was totally always achieved by hustling from humble salary with no connections or help at all.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#38

Post by watwut » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:31 AM UTC

urbanhole wrote: post #17

floren wrote: post #5

> I realized that though we had come to Cornell from Brooklyn, and from fairly similar Jewish middle-class backgrounds > Her father, who owned a travel agency, among many other companies, provided us with first-class tickets to Athens on a KLM “sleeper” flight. It's true what they say, everybody wants to think of themselves as middle-class

This constantly comes up because people have different understandings of what “middle class” means, or perhaps more importantly, should mean. I think a reasonable meaning (that the author might accept given the quoted statement) might go like “I live in a neighborhood with a bunch of other successful business owners or highly paid professionals, I must be pretty middle class”. As you rightly point out, that makes you…

Middle class definition has nothing to do with history. It is sociological term used to describe groups inside human societies. It is about where you are at relative to other people.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#39

Post by atleastoptimal » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:31 AM UTC

throw0101c wrote: post #15

cammikebrown wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know several one percenters who say they’re not wealthy. They always know someone richer than them, so they can’t possibly be that rich.

> So far I have tried to quantify what income level you need to be rich. I’ve tried to give you numbers that you could use to compare yourself to other people. However, in my many years of writing about money, I’ve come to realize something—being rich is more than a number. Being rich is a feeling. > Because even if the numbers say that you are doing well, if you don’t feel rich, then it doesn’t matter. You could be…

> "The highest form of wealth is the ability to wake up every morning and say, 'I can do whatever I want today.'"

Which is something only those wealthy enough to have paid off their house and have sufficient expenses for the rest of their life or passive income. A reality that has nothing to do with whether you feel rich, it's simply an economic reality

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#40

Post by watwut » Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 7:32 AM UTC

burnished wrote: post #19

urbanhole wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This constantly comes up because people have different understandings of what “middle class” means, or perhaps more importantly, should mean. I think a reasonable meaning (that the author might accept given the quoted statement) might go like “I live in a neighborhood with a bunch of other successful business owners or highly paid professionals, I must be pretty middle class”. As you rightly point out, that makes you…

I didnt know that, based on use I had assumed it meant "homeowner or highly paid professional", and now that I think on it it seems clearly incongruous that middle class shouldnt include successful business owner. Neat.

If you are successful enough of business owner, you become upper class.