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Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

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Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#11

Post by cammikebrown »

Guthur wrote: post #8
floren wrote: post #5

> I realized that though we had come to Cornell from Brooklyn, and from fairly similar Jewish middle-class backgrounds > Her father, who owned a travel agency, among many other companies, provided us with first-class tickets to Athens on a KLM “sleeper” flight. It's true what they say, everybody wants to think of themselves as middle-class

Yeah, they rarely go around saying, "I'm the 1%".

I know several one percenters who say they’re not wealthy. They always know someone richer than them, so they can’t possibly be that rich.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#12

Post by circlefull »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #10
tunesmith wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound even close to accurate, having read the article. They collaborated, she designed costumes, they flew to Greece together, her family invited him to stay at their property. Still doesn't suggest they were an item, but it's far from doing it all without her consent. Plus, he was still intent on making the movie after she moved on.

The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkeris…

Oh come on. The author never harassed her caused any harm or did anything she refused. He was a suitor and had a crush.

Stalker is a word better used more carefully in my opinion, for bad people. Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#13

Post by nl »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #10
tunesmith wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound even close to accurate, having read the article. They collaborated, she designed costumes, they flew to Greece together, her family invited him to stay at their property. Still doesn't suggest they were an item, but it's far from doing it all without her consent. Plus, he was still intent on making the movie after she moved on.

The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkeris…

Whilst I moderately agree that it does sound like it could be stalkerish there is some evidence of her active involvement, eg:

> I was living at my parents’ home in Rockville Centre and feared that asking Zervos to reply to Ed Epstein c/o Betty & Lou Epstein might cast my credibility as a producer into question. Susan’s sorority house at Cornell, Alpha Epsilon Phi, had a similar problem, but Susan found the solution: her father.

> David Brockman, a successful financier, had an impressive address, which I used as my return address.

and:

> I returned to Greece with Susan. She would supervise the design of the costumes, chariots, and other artwork. She took the costume design from vases she found in museums.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#14

Post by actionfromafar »

circlefull wrote: post #12
DoreenMichele wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkeris…

Oh come on. The author never harassed her caused any harm or did anything she refused. He was a suitor and had a crush. Stalker is a word better used more carefully in my opinion, for bad people. Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships.

While this is true, that's also exactly how stalkers present themselves.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#15

Post by throw0101c »

cammikebrown wrote: post #11
Guthur wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they rarely go around saying, "I'm the 1%".

I know several one percenters who say they’re not wealthy. They always know someone richer than them, so they can’t possibly be that rich.

> So far I have tried to quantify what income level you need to be rich. I’ve tried to give you numbers that you could use to compare yourself to other people. However, in my many years of writing about money, I’ve come to realize something—being rich is more than a number. Being rich is a feeling.

> Because even if the numbers say that you are doing well, if you don’t feel rich, then it doesn’t matter. You could be making $10M a year, but if you feel like you need to make $20M, then you will feel poorer than someone making $100,000 who only feels like they need to make $50,000.

* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/what-is-considered-rich/

> This is why when I ask, “Who feels rich really?” the answer is—no one.

> Because you can always point to someone else who is doing better.

* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/who-feels-rich-really/

Morgan Housel: "The highest form of wealth is the ability to wake up every morning and say, 'I can do whatever I want today.'"

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#16

Post by simoncion »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #10
tunesmith wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound even close to accurate, having read the article. They collaborated, she designed costumes, they flew to Greece together, her family invited him to stay at their property. Still doesn't suggest they were an item, but it's far from doing it all without her consent. Plus, he was still intent on making the movie after she moved on.

The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkeris…

> The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest.

And the remaining ~200 paragraphs describe an interaction that sounds to me very much like a director and producer collaborating on a doomed Hollywood production with one of his staff and the investors she brought on to the production.

The context provided by the entire rest of the piece is pretty important.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#17

Post by urbanhole »

floren wrote: post #5

> I realized that though we had come to Cornell from Brooklyn, and from fairly similar Jewish middle-class backgrounds > Her father, who owned a travel agency, among many other companies, provided us with first-class tickets to Athens on a KLM “sleeper” flight. It's true what they say, everybody wants to think of themselves as middle-class

This constantly comes up because people have different understandings of what “middle class” means, or perhaps more importantly, should mean.

I think a reasonable meaning (that the author might accept given the quoted statement) might go like “I live in a neighborhood with a bunch of other successful business owners or highly paid professionals, I must be pretty middle class”. As you rightly point out, that makes you pretty dang successful — more than “middle” seems to imply.

Of course, historically, that is the middle class. But no one cares about history.

From what I can tell, anyone richer than me is clearly not middle class; those bastards are rich. I’m clearly middle class, and hardworking, too. And damn it would suck to be poor in the US.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#18

Post by DoreenMichele »

nl wrote: post #13
DoreenMichele wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first sentence states he fell "head over heels" in love with her even though nowhere in the piece does he indicate they ever dated or flirted or so much as kissed. The rest of the first paragraph describe an interaction that sounds to me like she was probably trying to deflect his interest. He goes on to say he persisted with a tenacity he did not know he was capable of. If that doesn't sound borderline stalkeris…

Whilst I moderately agree that it does sound like it could be stalkerish there is some evidence of her active involvement, eg: > I was living at my parents’ home in Rockville Centre and feared that asking Zervos to reply to Ed Epstein c/o Betty & Lou Epstein might cast my credibility as a producer into question. Susan’s sorority house at Cornell, Alpha Epsilon Phi, had a similar problem, but Susan found the solution:…

I'm a woman. I try to assume good faith if men are pretending they wish to support my professional goals. In my experience, it's 100 percent downside for me if the real motivation is sexual interest.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#19

Post by burnished »

urbanhole wrote: post #17
floren wrote: post #5

> I realized that though we had come to Cornell from Brooklyn, and from fairly similar Jewish middle-class backgrounds > Her father, who owned a travel agency, among many other companies, provided us with first-class tickets to Athens on a KLM “sleeper” flight. It's true what they say, everybody wants to think of themselves as middle-class

This constantly comes up because people have different understandings of what “middle class” means, or perhaps more importantly, should mean. I think a reasonable meaning (that the author might accept given the quoted statement) might go like “I live in a neighborhood with a bunch of other successful business owners or highly paid professionals, I must be pretty middle class”. As you rightly point out, that makes you…

I didnt know that, based on use I had assumed it meant "homeowner or highly paid professional", and now that I think on it it seems clearly incongruous that middle class shouldnt include successful business owner. Neat.

Re: Waiting for Brando: A disastrous 1961 film production of the Iliad

#20

Post by Maursault »

actionfromafar wrote: post #14
circlefull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. The author never harassed her caused any harm or did anything she refused. He was a suitor and had a crush. Stalker is a word better used more carefully in my opinion, for bad people. Not hopeless romantics perusing hopeless relationships.

While this is true , that's also exactly how stalkers present themselves.

Haven't RTFA, but it is clear neither you nor OP have any idea what stalking is. While it does mean "to approach stealthily," which implies surveilling and following in the context of predator and prey, in the social and criminal sense stalking has a specific meaning which is in the simplest sense to threaten. Any indication in the article that the author had an intent of harassment and intimidation, or threatened a victim with bodily harm or death? Was the author explicitly shunned by the target of his affection and then continued to aggressively pursue her obsessively? No? Then it is not stalking.
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