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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#791

Post by andrepd »

wonderwonder wrote: post #730
v-erne wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this story/abstraction of "owning money" has to break at some level. I mean if you believe, as I do, that money (especially at trillion level) is direct substitution for power over people and even whole societies then what happens if we let this global game of Monopoly to play to its seemingly inevitable conclusion ? Isn't this somehow antidemocratic in nature? And if you notice that inheritance is not unlike…

Most billionaires don't really have access to the cash that is included in their net worth, they are shares in their company. If they want to be liquid they have to sell the shares, sacrificing their control of their companies. Regarding the rich having an outsized influence in politics, I do agree, but I think the solution is to get rid of PAC's. Give the rich the same donation limits as everyone else. Strict legal…

> If they want to be liquid they have to sell the shares, sacrificing their control of their companies.

Of course they don't, they just take loans against their assets. The banking sector is happy to provide them with liquidity at almost no cost.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#792

Post by sokoloff »

andrepd wrote: post #789
sokoloff wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1960s, US auto-makers appeared content to make crappy, unreliable cars until Japanese imports (also crappy at first) came in and improved quickly, putting pressure on the domestics to also improve. Consumers have vastly benefited from that competition, far in excess of any losses from the domestic automaker labor group. It’s not entirely voluntary, but if you want to see what protectionism and economic isolati…

> if you want to see what protectionism and economic isolation will bring, go visit Cuba Hasn't its neighbour and biggest economy in the world been levying an embargo on Cuba for over half a century? Doesn't seem like the appropriate example for your argument.

It's exactly a (forced as a political matter) economic isolation situation. North Korea is another politically isolated economy. I don't think they're doing very well either.

Trade helps poorer nations more than it helps richer nations, but it helps both.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#793

Post by v-erne »

wonderwonder wrote: post #730
v-erne wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this story/abstraction of "owning money" has to break at some level. I mean if you believe, as I do, that money (especially at trillion level) is direct substitution for power over people and even whole societies then what happens if we let this global game of Monopoly to play to its seemingly inevitable conclusion ? Isn't this somehow antidemocratic in nature? And if you notice that inheritance is not unlike…

Most billionaires don't really have access to the cash that is included in their net worth, they are shares in their company. If they want to be liquid they have to sell the shares, sacrificing their control of their companies. Regarding the rich having an outsized influence in politics, I do agree, but I think the solution is to get rid of PAC's. Give the rich the same donation limits as everyone else. Strict legal…

>> I believe if you set a limit on an individuals net worth, the economy will lose one of its major drivers and job creators

This is a really intresting intuition. My off the cuff resposne would be something like this:

So what? This does not mean anything without understanding what is the social impact of the jobs that were created - I have a bit of doubt that all 80000+ jobs at Facebook is really a net benefit for a world as a whole.

I'm from former Eastern Block country which went through full blown comunism era and we really did not need billioners to help create unlimited amount of bullshit jobs.

And what is more important for me, as I'm in the process of going through Shirer The Rise and Fall of Third Reich, and it had a real impact on my understanding of democracy - I believe at this point that it is paramount to create system in which no single individual or party has the ability to accumulate infinite power, no matter what cost it bears for economy. If anyone have some reservations - find the part where the infamous German "leader" explains to his generals why the war with west is inevitable and why it has to happen now and not in next few years.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#794

Post by incrudible »

lm28469 wrote: post #729
incrudible wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a 5% profit margin and the price doubles, so do your profits. Of course you could lower your profit margins and pass up on the opportunity of the decade.

I mean yeah if you're view of the world is so distorted that a war is an "opportunity"... That's exactly what's wrong and why people protest against this system so you're making my point

Of course rising prices are an opportunity for producers, war or not. If war had devastated their profits, you wouldn't bat an eye.

Moreover, the prospect of profits is what gets the supply going in the first place. Many shortsighted politicians have proposed to instate price caps to curb "immoral" profits - which would make an actual shortage more likely. After all, some gas at a high price is better than no gas, at any price.

I am in fact not making your point. Your moral concerns are completely independent of whether your proposal would work. I'd be in favor of wealth tax if it worked. It doesn't work.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#795

Post by wonderwonder »

v-erne wrote: post #793
wonderwonder wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most billionaires don't really have access to the cash that is included in their net worth, they are shares in their company. If they want to be liquid they have to sell the shares, sacrificing their control of their companies. Regarding the rich having an outsized influence in politics, I do agree, but I think the solution is to get rid of PAC's. Give the rich the same donation limits as everyone else. Strict legal…

>> I believe if you set a limit on an individuals net worth, the economy will lose one of its major drivers and job creators This is a really intresting intuition. My off the cuff resposne would be something like this: So what? This does not mean anything without understanding what is the social impact of the jobs that were created - I have a bit of doubt that all 80000+ jobs at Facebook is really a net benefit for a…

I hear what you are saying but who in the US from the private sector is close to seizing power? Elon Musk is the richest man in the world and a political pariah. There is a big difference between 80k jobs created by the government and 80k jobs created by the free market.

Those 80,000 jobs may not have a social impact as far as moving the world in the a desired direction but what jobs do?

Does a plumber? A teacher? What if they are not teaching what the party in charge wants taught?

Are we going to put someone in charge of determining if a job has meaning and eradicate the job if they don't? What happens when a different political party wins election and starts eliminating positions that the prior party thought had meaning? Can we say certain political parties have no net world benefit and remove them from contention?

That much power in government hands is a slow march back to the communism from which your country escaped.

Hitler was able to do what he did because the government had so much power. Less power in the hands of the government prevents that, not giving the government more power to police who can earn how much money and what jobs are worthy of existing.

I understand what you are saying especially when taken in the context of your childhood but I just disagree with giving anyone the power to enforce it.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#796

Post by OrvalWintermute »

RugnirViking wrote: post #732
OrvalWintermute wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You call them wars of choice. It would be more correct to call this preventative money. No, we that served don't. > They spend this money in order to prevent having an actual war later. Having spent a good part of my life prepping for Fulda Gap defense against the USSR I know that is incorrect. The US has spread NATO right up to Russian doorstep, on the cusp of inside their early warning systems for missiles, havin…

You served in the american millitary during the cold war but don't think that the countries that were beind the iron curtain should have been allowed to join nato? That's... interesting.

> You served in the american millitary during the cold war

To this day, Fulda Gap Defense is a part of US military practice in Europe. Most people that work for a NATO flagged unit practice this also.

> but don't think that the countries that were beind the iron curtain should have been allowed to join nato?

First of all, US leaders from the past have made numerous promises not to extend NATO that far East.

When you take what was intended to be a defensive alliance and extend it right up to a potential enemy's doorstep, inside their missile defense early warning shield, when you foment a number of color revolutions in another country's sphere of influence (Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Georgia, etc), and threaten their sphere of control, you are not just on the path to war, you are provoking it.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#797

Post by andsoitis »

sethammons wrote: post #539
andsoitis wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The economy doesn't work for the people anymore and drastic productivity increases have somehow not really improved our lives in terms of freedom, time, physical/mental health, quite the opposite. If trees could just all agree to remain short, they wouldn't need to waste resources to outgrow each other to reach sunlight.

Watch or read The Hidden Life of Trees and you may have to rethink your imagery. It would appear trees may be "agreeable" with each other.

thanks for recommendation!

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#798

Post by andrepd »

sokoloff wrote: post #792
andrepd wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you want to see what protectionism and economic isolation will bring, go visit Cuba Hasn't its neighbour and biggest economy in the world been levying an embargo on Cuba for over half a century? Doesn't seem like the appropriate example for your argument.

It's exactly a (forced as a political matter) economic isolation situation. North Korea is another politically isolated economy. I don't think they're doing very well either. Trade helps poorer nations more than it helps richer nations, but it helps both.

There are billions of people living under worse regimes than Cuba, yet only it and a handful of other nations have been on the receiving end of US sanctions. This was devastating to its economy (prior to the revolution it was of course Cuba's biggest trading partner).

There is no justification for the embargo. It was Cold War aggression, pure and simple, now sustained for the last decades purely because of electoral reasons.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#799

Post by WalterBright »

junofan wrote: post #622
WalterBright wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to leave the vault it must be invested or more typically loaned. Which it is. All of it, except for the reserve requirement. The idea that wealthy people hoard money is simply not true. The money is put back to work in the economy.

Reserve requirement is 0% in the US. Money supply is actively managed, so irrelevant. Hard assets are definitely hoarded compared to the past.

Hard assets are paid for with money, which means the money isn't hoarded.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#800

Post by realusername »

retinaros wrote: post #767
realusername wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system ISN'T sustained, not even the most optimistic scenario supports your argument. And funneling even more money into it like you want to isn't an option, the GDP proportion dedicated to retirement increased a lot already. You've seen the low salary but you didn't understand the cause of that, the cause of that is the money is being funneled to the retirement system.

why not? we have 98% of GDP debt and we kept funneling money into this debt. why suddenly the pension funds are the problem? it states that in 10 years there will be 20 billion deficit , that doesn’t include the raise of salaries to match inflation (it was removed in france in 1983) I ll wonder what would be the numbers if we do this simulation but pretty sure it will be positive. Finally, 20 billions is nothing for…

Isn't there other priorities in France than funneling more and more money in the retirement system so that wealthy old people can enjoy their boat cruise? Is that really the top priority right now?

You have to realize that debt and GDP spending are competing with each other.

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