French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#771

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 4:59 PM UTC

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #639

emodendroket wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is at least worth considering that there may have been reasons other than economic reasoning that people chose to have children.

And apparently that results in people having 1.8 children instead of 5.6.

I’m not sure what you’re saying. There are other factors that have changed between now and then, such as the general acceptability of being unmarried, family planning tools, reduced religiosity, and woolier stuff like people’s idea of what a good life is.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#772

Post by RestlessMind » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #713

RestlessMind wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you institute protectionist policies, you will in turn become less competitive less competitive against whom? If West had not shipped its factories to China, I am sure West would have still stayed competitive against China by miles. In fact, by shipping its technical know-how for manufacturing, West has allowed China to become more competitive. > I don't like gravity, but it doesn't mean I can ignore it and jump…

In the 1960s, US auto-makers appeared content to make crappy, unreliable cars until Japanese imports (also crappy at first) came in and improved quickly, putting pressure on the domestics to also improve. Consumers have vastly benefited from that competition, far in excess of any losses from the domestic automaker labor group. It’s not entirely voluntary, but if you want to see what protectionism and economic isolati…

If Japan had completely decimated Western car markets, had conflicting values with the US and posed a geopolitical rivalry, I would still have preferred crappy cars for the Western societies. After all, West didn't strengthen USSR via trade when there was a cold war.

Also, if the long term cost is "Western lifestyle regressing to mean" (original context I replied to), I'd still prefer crappy cars to preserve well-paying jobs.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#773

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #772

sokoloff wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1960s, US auto-makers appeared content to make crappy, unreliable cars until Japanese imports (also crappy at first) came in and improved quickly, putting pressure on the domestics to also improve. Consumers have vastly benefited from that competition, far in excess of any losses from the domestic automaker labor group. It’s not entirely voluntary, but if you want to see what protectionism and economic isolati…

If Japan had completely decimated Western car markets, had conflicting values with the US and posed a geopolitical rivalry, I would still have preferred crappy cars for the Western societies. After all, West didn't strengthen USSR via trade when there was a cold war. Also, if the long term cost is "Western lifestyle regressing to mean" (original context I replied to), I'd still prefer crappy cars to preserve well-pay…

My belief is that "isolationist economies fall well below the mean" in the long-term. If you want a comfortable Western lifestyle, you don't want to isolate yourself from global trade, but global trade means you aren't isolated from global competitive pressures.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#774

Post by grecy » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

diffeomorphism wrote: post #643

grecy wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered about suing the government for raising the retirement age. They're changing the deal we agreed to, without my consent. If I had known the full extent of the altered deal (i.e. no retirement till 69), I would have made different decisions from the start. If I have a 20 year mortgage with the bank I can't just change the terms so that the deal suits me better. Why can the government do that with my…

Usually they don't. For everyone currently over 50 nothing changes. For people between 40 and 50 one more year.... So only a fraction of the population is affected and young people don't have a lobby.

> For everyone currently over 50 nothing changes. For people between 40 and 50 one more year.... So only a fraction of the population is affected and young people don't have a lobby.

So I'll go to the bank tell them I'm just not going to pay the last year or two of my mortgage?

Or a car dealer and tell them I'm simply going to pay less for their car without them being able to say no?

You just said the same thing - "it's only a small inconvenience, so it's fine".

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#775

Post by mbar84 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 5:59 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #202

nyokodo wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Which is just a socialized form of the previous social security system which had children or grandchildren look after their parents. Of course, the glaring difference is that social security schemes have motivated many millions, who otherwise might have, to not have children at all or an inadequate number and so contribute very little to n…

> Of course, the glaring difference is that social security schemes have motivated many millions, who otherwise might have, to not have children at all or an inadequate number This implied link between public pensions and demographic collapse paints a picture that social security was destined to fail because people wouldn't have children for the purpose of taking care of them in old age. The millennial generation, th…

To prepare for retirement, you have two options:

1. Have children and treat them well. 2. Save and invest, so capital is available for the few children of the next generation to work with.

As long as millennials are doing option 2. there isn't a problem. If they rely on the pension system, then that would be a problem.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#776

Post by RestlessMind » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 6:24 PM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #654

RestlessMind wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't claim it's not fair. Fair to whom? Why should middle class in the West vote to allow outsourcing to cheaper countries? That will just destroy their well-paying jobs in exchange for some cheap Chinese goods and Indian call centers. I also feel the same way about current "remote first" trend - American software engineers are shooting themselves in the foot by embracing remote work. Wait until your salaries ge…

The Western standard of living has only been possible through currency/sage suppression of the non-Western world. Why do you think relocating everything to the West would be feasible or solve anything? I don’t understand why this isn’t common sense. > some cheap Chinese goods and Indian call centers Then again, if you have such a naive view of globalisation, you probably need to read more.

> Why do you think relocating everything to the West would be feasible or solve anything?

> a naive view of globalisation

I am talking about jobs in Western societies which were relocated elsewhere. And I admit that my views might be naive. But it is on you to convince Western middle class that shipping their jobs overseas, without an equally good job or social safety net lined up, is actually better for them. If you are just going to move jobs in the name of efficiency and let the Western labor rot and fend for itself, you are going to get Trump, Le Pen, AfD and Brexit.

In this whole thread, I still haven't seen a compelling case about how getting some goods cheaper / better is a worthy tradeoff to moving my stable job overseas.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#777

Post by 0xffff2 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #398

yamazakiwi wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is your grandfather? Gotta be 100+ correct? I don't think 99.99% of people will experience having worked less years than worked as they age.

90. Retired early at 60.

If he started working at 15, doesn't that put him at 45 years in the workforce and 30 years retired? He has to make it to 105 to meet your original claim.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#778

Post by yamazakiwi » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #333

yamazakiwi wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old is your grandfather? Gotta be 100+ correct? I don't think 99.99% of people will experience having worked less years than worked as they age.

Nah. OP's grandfather worked (say) from 15 to 45, and is now older than 75.

Who retires at 45?!?!

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#779

Post by cscurmudgeon » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 6:43 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #595

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are contributing to entertaining end users of the casino. Entertainment is a valid need. You or some academic in an ivory tower can't dictate worth or contribution. It is determined democratically by actions of consumers (literally voting with dollars). That said, there are some jobs we can easily label as zero wroth. E.g., jobs where people dig pits and fill them up (common in job schemes in socialist countries…

Bullshit jobs are not specific to state capitalist ("socialist") economies - they are a constant of all capitalist systems, as common in big corporations in the USA as they are in China or they were in the USSR. They do tend to take different shapes, but they are a natural effect of corruption, which tends to affect all large organizations.

> Bullshit jobs are not specific to state capitalist

Yes, but unlike in socialist governments, companies with a lot of bullshit jobs will die due to being inefficient. Thats the point of capitalism. Nobody has to work to support other able bodied humans rent seeking off their labor and capital.

But in the US this is not true, as we don't have true capitalism in the US, we have a socialist mix and the govt can sometimes prop up inefficient companies.

But in socialism, authoritarians will remain in power for decades even if the majority doesn't like it. Rent seeking is a natural state of affairs in more socialist countries.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#780

Post by gwright » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 6:44 PM UTC

Panzer04 wrote: post #572

ALittleLight wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extremely grateful for all the money given to me by everyone who hasn't mugged or robbed me.

You are not robbed as a matter of course. The government takes your taxes as a matter of course. Not taxing you (by giving you a 10k tax deduction, for example) is, in a practical sense, basically identical from the government's perspective as giving away money.

Except that it isn't. If you adopt that framing, you are working with a mindset that the government gets to figure out what to do with your money first and you get the leftovers. That is a completely different mindset than setting the expectation that the the people get to decide (via representatives) what money the government gets and how it should be spent.

Those two mindsets are very different and I would argue is one of the ways that the left and the right are different.