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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#631

Post by lynx23 »

gleenn wrote: post #386
spywaregorilla wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just because people died young. The mode (most common) age of death was over 75 in France for men in 1930. I'm not sure how WWII factors into that. It's now about 82, eyeballing it (yes, still higher). https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_POPU_1204_0683--the-mos... People were not "old" and dying at appreciably higher rates given they reached age 60 back then. The general premise that there's a lot of rich old…

My understanding was that almost all countries with advanced economies are experiencing negative growth in producing children. So even if you are right about the nuance in age, go look at Japan. Their population is shrinking.

Sure, but is shrinkage really a problem, given that automation is about to eliminate a bunch of professions?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#632

Post by manuelmoreale »

skrause wrote: post #621
astrange wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> uh, didn't the old people finance their own social security? No, that's the original marketing but the payments you get out of it aren't related to the ones you put into it i.e. they're just a tax to fund the program.

Really depends on the country. In Germany the payments you get out of it are related to the ones you put into it and are separate from the taxes.

Same in Italy but it’s related to how much you paid, it’s not the same money. The money I’m currently paying are used to finance pensions to people retired now.

When I’ll retire (will never happen at this rate) I’ll get a pension that’s based on how much I contributed but the money will come from people who will still be working.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#633

Post by Reptur »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

Those who set it know that people in lower socioeconomic status won't live until 77.8.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170131190102.h...

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#634

Post by RestlessMind »

anon84873628 wrote: post #459
RestlessMind wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your insurance most certainly didn't pay out 85K. They have negotiated lower rates which are not transparent to us. Source - my own kids deliveries were billed 40-50K. We paid at most a few hundred.

Are you trying to say US healthcare isn't expensive? What is the financial risk of having a child who needs insulin?

> Are you trying to say US healthcare isn't expensive?

I am only arguing with "The point is that having children is simply too expensive, partly due to cost disease in healthcare." Typically, the main cost of having children involves preschool childcare and good colleges.

> What is the financial risk of having a child who needs insulin?

How many children need insulin? Again, I only contend with the broad generalization that having children is expensive due to healthcare costs.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#635

Post by mahkeiro »

ur-whale wrote: post #179
justeleblanc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Where do you think the money comes from? Thin air? Any increase in the value of pension funds (for example) is coming from the workers.

> Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Where do you think the money comes from? Disagree. Counter-examples: 401k in the US Second pillar in Switzerland. The money comes from the people saving and investing their own money for their old age. Shocker, I know.

Ok but indirectly it's still the same. Once you reach the retirement age, interest/dividend and capital increase are "paid" by younger generation. If at retirement age you were to have no interest/dividend/capital increase you are going to have a very small pension, especially if inflation kick-in.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#636

Post by 0xDEF »

AYBABTME wrote: post #589
cmehdy wrote: post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

This is all dramatic and very tragic, but the numbers don't make sense. It's not something where passion should win over reason. Current and future generations will be screwed if this pension system isn't reformed. If anything Macron deserves applauses for committing political suicide for the greater good

He is not committing political suicide. He has always been unpopular but the only alternative is the far-right.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#637

Post by RestlessMind »

amunicio wrote: post #581
RestlessMind wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't claim it's not fair. Fair to whom? Why should middle class in the West vote to allow outsourcing to cheaper countries? That will just destroy their well-paying jobs in exchange for some cheap Chinese goods and Indian call centers. I also feel the same way about current "remote first" trend - American software engineers are shooting themselves in the foot by embracing remote work. Wait until your salaries ge…

> Why should middle class in the West vote to allow outsourcing to cheaper countries? Because you can run but you can't hide. If you institute protectionist policies, you will in turn become less competitive. Hence, you will require even more protectionist policies, that in turn will make you even more uncompetitive. In the end, you will have higher prices for lower quality domestic products. I don't like gravity, bu…

> If you institute protectionist policies, you will in turn become less competitive

less competitive against whom? If West had not shipped its factories to China, I am sure West would have still stayed competitive against China by miles. In fact, by shipping its technical know-how for manufacturing, West has allowed China to become more competitive.

> I don't like gravity, but it doesn't mean I can ignore it and jump from tall buildings.

Sure, but outsourcing is nothing like gravity. It is a mixture of greed on part of corporations to reduce labor costs, naivete on behalf of politicians who thought China and others would welcome Western values along with Western jobs and stupidity on part of voters who traded short term cheap junk for long term stable jobs.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#638

Post by midoridensha »

vkou wrote: post #625
midoridensha wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was also a big, dangerous wilderness when Europeans first arrived. It wasn't a place you could just go travel to, get a nice cushy job, buy a nice house, and live a comfortable life.

It had land, free[1] for the taking. And in pre-industrial times, when 70% of the population were farmers, land was a direct, and immediate proxy for wealth. Wealth that stayed with you and your family. You were the owner, instead of some shitty sharecropper for a landlord. [1] I mean, aside from the natives.

From the European point-of-view, the presence of the natives was yet another big danger and obstacle, in addition to the harsh weather (the winters in the northeast where the first colonies were established are much worse than in most of Europe), lack of infrastructure, etc.

As for land being a proxy for wealth that stayed with you, that worked out OK as long as there was lots of land for people to grab up and claim as their own (or take from some natives who don't have the weapons technology to fight back well). And it's the reason people colonized North America: because all the land in Europe had been claimed by some shitty landlord. These days, that's all gone: now you're stuck living with a shitty landlord again, and there's no new continents left to colonize, so we need to come up with a better economic system.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#639

Post by zeroonetwothree »

emodendroket wrote: post #597
jjoonathan wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When options are thin, hope commands a premium. See: lottery tickets. Would you give up planning for retirement just because all of the options were unreliable? I wouldn't, I'd pick the least bad and try anyway.

I think it is at least worth considering that there may have been reasons other than economic reasoning that people chose to have children.

And apparently that results in people having 1.8 children instead of 5.6.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#640

Post by ephimetheus »

0xDEF wrote: post #636
AYBABTME wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all dramatic and very tragic, but the numbers don't make sense. It's not something where passion should win over reason. Current and future generations will be screwed if this pension system isn't reformed. If anything Macron deserves applauses for committing political suicide for the greater good

He is not committing political suicide. He has always been unpopular but the only alternative is the far-right.

Which is what worries me. A far right government in France might spell doom for the EU
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