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React is holding me hostage

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Re: React is holding me hostage

#361

Post by adql »

Illniyar wrote: post #132

I'm still a React guy. I've also worked with Angular and Vue and toyed with Svelte. People tend to compare these frameworks on things that don't matter - often it's performance. We used to compare React performance to AngularJs performance too, which was meaningless. VDom is nice. Reactivity in signals is nice. Limiting rerenders is nice. But I choose frameworks because of developer ergonomics. The killer feature for…

> People tend to compare these frameworks on things that don't matter - often it's performance.

I think I reflect the entirety of the user base of the internet when I say "fuck you" (not you in particular, just the trend of shitting on performance so we have apps running like it is 70's and tape drives on our gigahertz CPUs) here.

Re: React is holding me hostage

#362

Post by dahart »

fullstackchris wrote: post #208

I don't understand the animosity around useEffect. It executes a function based on a list of dependent variables. That's it. Once you understand that, its purpose becomes very clear. You don't want to rerender? Use useEffect with an empty array! Or don't use any state variables! You want to show something new to your customers / users without rerendering? Well sorry, that's impossible, regardless of any framework you…

> You want to show something new to your customers / users without rerendering? Well sorry, that's impossible, regardless of any framework you use and you should go back to UI development 101.

When you say “render” are you referring to what React means by “render”, that it will go through the whole virtual DOM cycle? Because it most certainly is possible to avoid that when using pure JavaScript. Why do you say it’s impossible? React’s fundamental problem with performance, and the whole reason people often don’t want to re-render is because React renders everything, then does a big diff on the DOM to compare it to what was rendered before, and then updates the elements that changed. I know a lot of work has been put into making that process fast, but it’s still really expensive compared to the pure JS way of doing it. In CS terminology, updating a button or any other single element went from an O(1) operation with JavaScript to an O(N) operation with React.

Re: React is holding me hostage

#363

Post by adql »

azangru wrote: post #347
philliphaydon wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's 2 things that I hate about react. 1) JSX - It's terrible. Svelte, Vue, Riot... they all got it right. JSX, mixing a weird syntax of HTML and JS together is just inferior to HTML with additional markup. 2) I don't know why but every react project has crazy levels of abstraction. Everything is 15 layers deep and making any sort of change requires way too much effort to navigate 15 files and code reading to make…

How is this example from vue docs: preferable to the jsx version: or even this loop example from the vue docs: {{ item.message }} better than its jsx counterpart? items.map(item => ( {item.message} ))

Both look like ye olde PHP code mixed with HTML tbh.

Re: React is holding me hostage

#364

Post by agloe_dreams »

akudha wrote: post #216
codeptualize wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the modern webapp experience is so miserable for the average person. I see this claim a lot and I'm curious what this is based on, can somebody drop some links to further reading?

I have a beefy machine and fast internet. Yet, JIRA is annoyingly slow. Half the time, pages on my bank’s website take forever to load, or don’t load at all. I don’t have any numbers, just some anecdotal experience like the above. It is not just speed. The UI of many sites suck too. Amazon, GoDaddy, for example. Then there are ads. We don’t see ads in between content anymore. It is content within ads these days. I am…

The problem with Jira...is that it isn't for you.

No really. It is a B2B company that sells an idea to large orgs. "Know what is happening for everything and where you will be in a month.

It is not "Enable your workers to work more efficiently".

Jira simply doesn't really care about the average dev or such. In fact, most orgs use such a wildly configured version that it is pretty absurd.

Let me give you an example: Most companies have a workflow: To Do > In Progress > Testing > Done.

Foundationally, Testing and In Progress are tasks done by different operators. Jira doesn't, out of the box, conceptualize who tested a ticket and who developed it. It is all one field. You don't have seperate pointing for testing and development so you can't track QA capacity (Which is helpful to a team but not to overall planning as it just causes rushed QA). You don't have historical views of prior sprints "What was that Ticket I worked on last sprint?" (because that means nothing for forward velocity other than the final number) I could go on..but it all leads back to an absurd UI focused purely on projects and velocity above helpfulness. (And don't get me started on Jira's absurd take on SCRUM) Honestly, I'm kinda shocked no major software company has not just built their own and knocked Atlassian out of the park. I'm sure tracking velocity of other companies would be highly...helpful for Google/MS.

Re: React is holding me hostage

#365

Post by azangru »

azangru wrote: post #347
philliphaydon wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's 2 things that I hate about react. 1) JSX - It's terrible. Svelte, Vue, Riot... they all got it right. JSX, mixing a weird syntax of HTML and JS together is just inferior to HTML with additional markup. 2) I don't know why but every react project has crazy levels of abstraction. Everything is 15 layers deep and making any sort of change requires way too much effort to navigate 15 files and code reading to make…

How is this example from vue docs: preferable to the jsx version: or even this loop example from the vue docs: {{ item.message }} better than its jsx counterpart? items.map(item => ( {item.message} ))

For what it's worth, I like the syntax of Lit. There are a couple of magic symbols ("@" for method, "." for property); but otherwise, it's plain javascript.

The DOM output that Lit produces, peppered with magic comments, looks disgusting though :-(

Re: React is holding me hostage

#366

Post by javcasas »

PaulHoule wrote: post #300
pas wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still means you have 3 different types of entities. One where the event originates (knobs), one where it will gets translated into actual UX effects (DOM updates, API fetches, whatever, lets call these servos and gauges), and one place where the business logic lives that transforms between the low-voltage input signal and the high-voltage output driver power. Without that transducer you have incompatible things.…

That is one of the many partial answers that works some of the time but not all of the time. For relatively simple applications you can push all the state high up to the root of the tree or near the root of the tree and have it flow down with props. There is a complexity hierarchy and around the time people woke up to AJAX (there were a few years when it was just a ‘evil Microsoft thing’) I was writing apps that were…

> it is worse when the user can instantiate arbitrary components (say for a knowledge graph editor or a geospatial intelligence tool) that ‘listen’ to event changes.

Your application is effectively "anything can modify anything", which is the previous step to "anything modifies anything", I/E big ball of mud. React's answer to that is "keep all the state in a small component" (small ball of mud) or "keep the state in a tree" (one-direction bindings, prevent state graphs).

This makes React discourage (I/E makes harder and puts friction) graph-based state, as it is the most direct path to big ball of mud.

This doesn't solve your problem, but definitely helps push 99% applications away from the big ball of mud. The fact is that for your 1% case you need the big ball of mud, and, in your case, pushing away from it doesn't help.

Re: React is holding me hostage

#367

Post by azangru »

philliphaydon wrote: post #356
azangru wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this example from vue docs: preferable to the jsx version: or even this loop example from the vue docs: {{ item.message }} better than its jsx counterpart? items.map(item => ( {item.message} ))

JSX forces you into small tiny components because anything of any decent size becomes unmanageable. There's way too much mixing of JS into the template. Vue you can do Submit In React I've seen people do: if (!props.isFormValid) { return Submit ; } return Submit ; This is just an example, obviously you can write this better in React. My point is there's /always/ so much conditional markup like this in every react pro…

> return Submit;

In JSX, the "disabled" attribute is a boolean; so it would be just:

    return Submit;

Re: React is holding me hostage

#368

Post by adql »

unxdfa wrote: post #212
codeptualize wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the modern webapp experience is so miserable for the average person. I see this claim a lot and I'm curious what this is based on, can somebody drop some links to further reading?

Try selling React shit to corporates who have corporate malware infested Edge running on overloaded Citrix nodes or the average corporate android that was made about 3 years ago. We still get And we actually can debug our product!

Both Discord and MS Teams use React (afaik) and only one of them runs shit.

Both are not exactly light tho

Re: React is holding me hostage

#369

Post by agloe_dreams »

favaq wrote: post #207
codeptualize wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the modern webapp experience is so miserable for the average person. I see this claim a lot and I'm curious what this is based on, can somebody drop some links to further reading?

Buy the average $400 windows laptop and $250 android phone and you'll see.

Would you? Most $400 laptops are on 10th gen Intel or such. Thats actually pretty good. A Pentium Gold is actually just on the edge of a modern i3 which in single core. Smokes most 8th gen chips. They are pretty good.

$250 in an Android phone can get you a SD 695 5g these days. IT's not fast per say but it absolutely doesn't suck.

Re: React is holding me hostage

#370

Post by philliphaydon »

azangru wrote: post #367
philliphaydon wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JSX forces you into small tiny components because anything of any decent size becomes unmanageable. There's way too much mixing of JS into the template. Vue you can do Submit In React I've seen people do: if (!props.isFormValid) { return Submit ; } return Submit ; This is just an example, obviously you can write this better in React. My point is there's /always/ so much conditional markup like this in every react pro…

> return Submit ; In JSX, the "disabled" attribute is a boolean; so it would be just: return Submit ;

> This is just an example, obviously you can write this better in React.

The issue is people write SO much conditional logic into their react templates. Not that disabled is boolean and can be written better.

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