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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#721

Post by sokoloff »

Spooky23 wrote: post #279
nyokodo wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Which is just a socialized form of the previous social security system which had children or grandchildren look after their parents. Of course, the glaring difference is that social security schemes have motivated many millions, who otherwise might have, to not have children at all or an inadequate number and so contribute very little to n…

That’s a pretty crazy position. In the US, there’s lots of material out there on the conditions that led to the creation of Social Security and subsequent legislation like Medicare and Medicaid. Hopefully you are simply ignorant of that history and not demonstrating a blase tolerance of human suffering. These systems are very sustainable, and the solution to the funding issues would be best served by indexing the cut…

> the solution to the funding issues would be best served by indexing the cutoff for contributions to inflation.

Social Security caps are indexed to inflation (they went up 9% from 2022 to 2023): https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/retirement/planner/maxtax.html

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#722

Post by realusername »

p4bl0 wrote: post #720
realusername wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single scenario in the COR is negative for a long time, people should stop lying about it to comfort their political leanings. And it's not like it's for short time either, the worst scenario has a negative forecast for the next 45 years. The figures are terrible, regardless of your opinion. Secondly, 14% of GDP is massive, workers have been paying more and more towards the retirement system, salaries did incre…

The president of the COR itself disagrees with you: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/retraite/reforme-des-re... > 14% of GDP is massive That's very subjective, and even someone agreeing to call it "massive" could not necessarily see a problem with that, if we can afford it (which it seems, we can). > Additionally low salaries live less longer, making the system even more injust. That's a good point. And the refor…

> The president of the COR itself disagrees with you: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/retraite/reforme-des-re...

No, they do agree with me, read it yourself again, in the most optimistic scenario, France needs to wait until 2045 (!!) for the deficit to be reduced. That's terrible in itself, and that's the most optimistic scenario as well... What I would consider reasonable is a few years of deficit, not from 20 up to 50 years.

> That's very subjective, and even someone agreeing to call it "massive" could not necessarily see a problem with that, if we can afford it (which it seems, we can).

You can't complain of stagnating salaries if you are okay with increasing the share of workers salaries going towards retirement. "we can afford it" doesn't seem to be the opinion of the people concerned paying it.

> Concerning the high retirement salaries and the necessity to tax them more, I mostly agree. But that's not at all what Macron's reform is about.

Let's not pretend like anybody else is proposing this solution either.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#723

Post by p4bl0 »

realusername wrote: post #722
p4bl0 wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president of the COR itself disagrees with you: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/retraite/reforme-des-re... > 14% of GDP is massive That's very subjective, and even someone agreeing to call it "massive" could not necessarily see a problem with that, if we can afford it (which it seems, we can). > Additionally low salaries live less longer, making the system even more injust. That's a good point. And the refor…

> The president of the COR itself disagrees with you: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/retraite/reforme-des-re ... No, they do agree with me, read it yourself again, in the most optimistic scenario, France needs to wait until 2045 (!!) for the deficit to be reduced. That's terrible in itself, and that's the most optimistic scenario as well... What I would consider reasonable is a few years of deficit, not from 20…

> "we can afford it" doesn't seem to be the opinion of the people concerned paying it.

Then how do you explains the massive strikes and demonstration? Do you think these millions of people and the millions more that support them are all dumb?

> Let's not pretend like anybody else is proposing this solution either.

Politics don't for obvious electoralistic reasons, but the idea is at least discussed in some unions.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#724

Post by onetokeoverthe »

retinaros wrote: post #235
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #87

The french pension reform attempts have been going on for decades . I remember in the mid-90s a huge, weeks- (months-?) long public transit strike which, funnily enough, kick-started Parisian's interest in roller-blading (and led to the awesome weekly Friday-night roller-blading tour [1]. If it's your thing, I highly recommend it! But be prepared to have to go over some cobblestone sections) France's system has the w…

the system IS sustained. the main white collar one even generates profits. increase the salaries that will increase money being sent to retirement funds and it won’t be a problem anymore. france income per capita has been the same for the past 20 years. they are stealing our wages to make us slaves and they blame us for not working enough. christine lagarde pushed for blocking wage rise in the EU, european commission…

[dead]

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#725

Post by [deleted] »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #87

The french pension reform attempts have been going on for decades . I remember in the mid-90s a huge, weeks- (months-?) long public transit strike which, funnily enough, kick-started Parisian's interest in roller-blading (and led to the awesome weekly Friday-night roller-blading tour [1]. If it's your thing, I highly recommend it! But be prepared to have to go over some cobblestone sections) France's system has the w…

[deleted]

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#726

Post by speedgoose »

Aeolun wrote: post #692
speedgoose wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People just want to adjust the system so they don’t have to work when very old. It doesn’t mean the government has to print money. You can change more than the retirement age in the equation, or change the equation.

By all means. How exactly would you go about that? You can pay people even less. Can you imagine how that would go? You can make fewer young people pay even more. You can redirect other taxes to cover the gap. You can print more money to cover the gap (until your economy collapses from interest payments). Retirement age is the least contentious variable as far as I’m concerned.

It looks like you know the potential solutions.

Paying people less is a common option. You just increase their payments slower than the inflation so they don't burn the country down immediately.

You can make people pay more, that's also a common option. A frequent feeling in France is that some people don't pay enough taxes.

You can also redirect other taxes, the retirements pension scheme doesn't have to be a zero-sum actually.

You can also print more money, because everyone does that all the time and it works well in practice.

Modifying the retirement age is the lazy and capitalist way.

Thankfully I'm not in charge, but I would do a bit of everything (including changing the retirement age of some category of workers).

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#727

Post by lm28469 »

csomar wrote: post #541
BadCookie wrote: post #253

These stats are for the U.S., but one thing that usually get ignored in these retirement discussions is just how massively life expectancy depends on income level and sex: http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/health/ Raising the retirement pension age screws over the poor, especially poor men. Perhaps retirement age should be tied to income/wealth somehow ... and maybe even sex (as controversial as I imagine that w…

I mean if you want to be precise than maybe make the retirement age based on the health conditions of the individual in question? In good shape. Work more. Bad shape? Retire. I'd like you to read about the Cobra effect first, though.

So you work until your health doesn't allow it anymore ?

The whole reason of retirement is to have a bit of freedom in relative good health after a life of work

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#728

Post by realusername »

p4bl0 wrote: post #723
realusername wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The president of the COR itself disagrees with you: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/retraite/reforme-des-re ... No, they do agree with me, read it yourself again, in the most optimistic scenario, France needs to wait until 2045 (!!) for the deficit to be reduced. That's terrible in itself, and that's the most optimistic scenario as well... What I would consider reasonable is a few years of deficit, not from 20…

> "we can afford it" doesn't seem to be the opinion of the people concerned paying it. Then how do you explains the massive strikes and demonstration? Do you think these millions of people and the millions more that support them are all dumb? > Let's not pretend like anybody else is proposing this solution either. Politics don't for obvious electoralistic reasons, but the idea is at least discussed in some unions.

> Then how do you explains the massive strikes and demonstration? Do you think these millions of people and the millions more that support them are all dumb?

Not many people understand how the retirement system works in France and its direct impact on salaries. It's not the simplest retirement model either and people don't take the time understand it.

> Politics don't for obvious electoralistic reasons, but the idea is at least discussed in some unions.

Sure but then what's the point? There's much more people retired than people working, the democratic system is broken.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#729

Post by lm28469 »

incrudible wrote: post #139
lm28469 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prices yes, you're looking at _profits_ though

If you have a 5% profit margin and the price doubles, so do your profits. Of course you could lower your profit margins and pass up on the opportunity of the decade.

I mean yeah if you're view of the world is so distorted that a war is an "opportunity"...

That's exactly what's wrong and why people protest against this system so you're making my point

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#730

Post by wonderwonder »

v-erne wrote: post #696
wonderwonder wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are the ten thousand people he employs getting good wages because of his actions? Would they be making comparable salaries if he had not started his companies? He is not paid for productivity, he is rewarded for taking the initial risk and investing his own money.

I think this story/abstraction of "owning money" has to break at some level. I mean if you believe, as I do, that money (especially at trillion level) is direct substitution for power over people and even whole societies then what happens if we let this global game of Monopoly to play to its seemingly inevitable conclusion ? Isn't this somehow antidemocratic in nature? And if you notice that inheritance is not unlike…

Most billionaires don't really have access to the cash that is included in their net worth, they are shares in their company. If they want to be liquid they have to sell the shares, sacrificing their control of their companies.

Regarding the rich having an outsized influence in politics, I do agree, but I think the solution is to get rid of PAC's. Give the rich the same donation limits as everyone else. Strict legal enforcement should be put in place.

I believe if you set a limit on an individuals net worth, the economy will lose one of its major drivers and job creators will potentially just hit that net worth, shrug and shut their companies down or pass them on to less capable people costing millions of jobs. Depending on the net worth cap, this could happen relatively early in a companies growth.

I do strongly agree with a strong inheritance tax for individuals over an arbitrary net worth, something in the hundred millions range.

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