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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#661

Post by nicwilson »

amalcon wrote: post #450
atleastoptimal wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we removed the electoral college in the US, or if voting day were a national holiday, all those issues would automatically be addressed. The old and conservative make too powerful a voting block, and it perpetuates every corporate, oligarchic, xenophobic greed cycle one could point to as a rot in our system. I don't think old people are bad because they're just taking government money and have big fancy houses, bu…

> if voting day were a national holiday I see this suggestion a lot, but I struggle to understand what problem it's expected to solve. It certainly wouldn't help voter turn-out. Most service sector jobs (the kind where it's hard to get a couple of hours off to vote) require you to work more on national holidays, not less. It's mostly the relatively voting friendly office jobs that give the day off for a national holi…

you don't need to make it a holiday, just doing it on a weekend should suffice. E.g. in Australia, elections, Federal, state and local are all held on Saturdays.

If you actually want to improve turnout, enact compulsory voting. That is much better, but still no silver bullet to electing sane competent and not corrupt politicians.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#662

Post by nazgul17 »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #527
supernova87a wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you're disputing over. It is both a tax, and it is an insurance program.

I think if you call it insurance it assumes you are entitled to something, but you are not. A future government can decided to stop paying or reduce payments if they want to. I prefer what we have here in Australia where you are required to pay money into an account that is actually yours, with a balance that you can watch grow, and that you can withdraw as you need when you retire.

Is it true that you can actually withdraw it all the day you retire to buy real estate and then the government will start giving out a pension for you? This is something I was told by some Australians.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#663

Post by lelanthran »

Uvix wrote: post #369
tomcam wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Giving old people money for free Didn’t they pay into Social Security?

No - Social Security for the people who are already retired is paid for by the people who are currently working. Nobody is "paying into" anything.

> No - Social Security for the people who are already retired is paid for by the people who are currently working. Nobody is "paying into" anything.

Don't all insurance and investments work that way?

Why make it seem that the enforced payment into SS is any different?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#664

Post by logicchains »

Panzer04 wrote: post #572
ALittleLight wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extremely grateful for all the money given to me by everyone who hasn't mugged or robbed me.

You are not robbed as a matter of course. The government takes your taxes as a matter of course. Not taxing you (by giving you a 10k tax deduction, for example) is, in a practical sense, basically identical from the government's perspective as giving away money.

People living in certain parts of the world are robbed regularly as a matter of course; does that mean robbers are giving somebody money if they band together one day and decide to stop robbing that person?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#665

Post by mrfumier »

retinaros wrote: post #235
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #87

The french pension reform attempts have been going on for decades . I remember in the mid-90s a huge, weeks- (months-?) long public transit strike which, funnily enough, kick-started Parisian's interest in roller-blading (and led to the awesome weekly Friday-night roller-blading tour [1]. If it's your thing, I highly recommend it! But be prepared to have to go over some cobblestone sections) France's system has the w…

the system IS sustained. the main white collar one even generates profits. increase the salaries that will increase money being sent to retirement funds and it won’t be a problem anymore. france income per capita has been the same for the past 20 years. they are stealing our wages to make us slaves and they blame us for not working enough. christine lagarde pushed for blocking wage rise in the EU, european commission…

"european commission non elected leaders"

French government is not elected either. Like all European countries, by the way.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#666

Post by gabaix »

cmehdy wrote: post #495
aluminussoma wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for adding this perspective. The news reports we receive do not provide this context so it is easy to think it is only about numbers.

Thanks. I didn't even get into the minister pushing for the reform doing crosswords during a parliamentary session on his subject, the inflation absolutely exploding in France, the surge of students falling below poverty lines and needing food stamps worse than during covid, the ministers genuinely advising the population to "wear turtlenecks during the winter", the abuse of 49.3 article (similar to Canada's notwiths…

This comment is good illustration of why most democratic gouvernements lose support over time. The media collect a list of disappointing behaviors, social media push said content to disgruntled citizens, and the government loses all credibility over time.

The ability for a government to not slip is crucial for slowing the decay.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#667

Post by defrost »

nazgul17 wrote: post #662
jay_kyburz wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you call it insurance it assumes you are entitled to something, but you are not. A future government can decided to stop paying or reduce payments if they want to. I prefer what we have here in Australia where you are required to pay money into an account that is actually yours, with a balance that you can watch grow, and that you can withdraw as you need when you retire.

Is it true that you can actually withdraw it all the day you retire to buy real estate and then the government will start giving out a pension for you? This is something I was told by some Australians.

Not exactly:

    The Age Pension is designed to support the basic living standards of older Australians. It is paid to people who meet age and residency requirements. It is targeted through the means test to those who need it most. Pension rates are indexed to ensure they keep pace with Australian price and wage increases.
https://www.dss.gov.au/seniors/benefits-payments/age-pension

If you only have the house you live in (that's more or less median) and no income (from additional rental properties | other investments) then you might qualify for a pension.

Typically people might draw on their superannuation fund to provide a weekly income for themselves although they are free to use it for their retirement plans as they see fit.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#668

Post by mrfumier »

cmehdy wrote: post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

As a french citizen, I agree it's not about numbers.

If young people were understanding the numbers, they would go on streets to push for the reform to be adopted.

The problem is, there is an extreme left group, dreaming of the big night of uprising and revolution to install a communist government in France. So they take every opportunity to block the country and mess everything up, even though they're not even concerned by the reform themselves.

There is a silent majority who is in favor of the reform, which will eventually pass, like always.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#669

Post by logicchains »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #190
HDThoreaun wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the state seize the hoarded wealth when it can just move to a tax haven?

Capital flight is a potential risk, true. There are any number of potential remedies on a niceness continuum ranging from using the legal system to freeze assets on the nice end to guillotines on the not-so-nice end. You're encouraged to consult any number of history texts for past examples of wealth transfer from the elite classes.

>There are any number of potential remedies on a niceness continuum ranging from using the legal system to freeze assets on the nice end to guillotines on the not-so-nice end

You do realise the guillotines in the French revolution weren't used on "rich people", they were used on the nobility (ruling class)? And in the times that approach was used on the rich people, e.g. Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, the countries in which it occurred was plunged into decades of extreme poverty and genocides.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#670

Post by Ekaros »

nradov wrote: post #390
actually_a_dog wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly does the same amount of labor need doing when there will fewer people who need anything in the near future? You seem to be saying more labor per person is necessary to satisfy this “need.” That doesn’t seem beneficial to workers as a whole. I thought innovation was supposed to benefit everyone? Where’s the hole in this logic?

Compared to productive workers, retirees will need less of some things and more of others. In particular demand for healthcare is increasing. Expect most countries to increasingly ration healthcare, especially for elderly people.

One of the biggest changes in coming decades culturally might be how long are we ready to prolong life of average person. Rich can afford it on their own, but same doesn't apply to you normal pensioner.
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