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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like unfortunately many governments have proven incapable of responsibly handling the money. In the case the government is entirely incapable of handling the money I'd at least see the worker get that tax waved to have something for whatever meager existence is left with the money.

In Aus, the government doesn't manage the money. They set a mandatory percentage of your wage which must be put into superannuation, but you as an individual can choose the fund to manage your account, and you can move funds at-will with no penalty. The Tax Office actually facilitates the move to help prevent any nefarious actions from the funds. There is also the option of running a self-managed fund, where you inve…

> They set a mandatory percentage of your wage which must be put into superannuation

For further clarification, it's the employer who has to pay the super contribution, not the worker.

And if anyone is about to claim "same thing, if the employer didn't have to pay that, they would pay it out as additional wages", my only response is a heartfelt "lol".

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the system IS sustained. the main white collar one even generates profits. increase the salaries that will increase money being sent to retirement funds and it won’t be a problem anymore. france income per capita has been the same for the past 20 years. they are stealing our wages to make us slaves and they blame us for not working enough. christine lagarde pushed for blocking wage rise in the EU, european commission…

By increasing everybody's salaries, it seems likely to me the cost of goods and services would go up by virtue of inflation. There is no free lunch. At the same time, prosperity is not a zero sum game. The rise of China has coincided with increased living standards in nearly every country. I'm not sure who would be "stealing" your wages. If I were to say, it's French labor policies that are stifling innovation and pr…

> By increasing everybody's salaries, it seems likely to me the cost of goods and services would go up by virtue of inflation.

But then everybody's salary stagnating hasn't made the cost of goods stagnate. There's no such simple and direct link between the two.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#483
The one thing I'm not seeing in the comments is a discussion on the fundamentals of pension schemes.

In principle, a pension scheme will work forever, in isolation, as long as the following inequality holds true:

(A:=(working_pop * avg_income * avg_pension_tax_%)) >= (B:=(retirement_pop * avg_benefit_payout))

If investments are allowed in said scheme, the inequality can be relaxed slightly:

A + (C:=(investments * return_ratio * withdrawl_%)) >= B

with (investments:=(previous_investments + A-B)), and (return_ratio:=(1 + return_%)).

From here, 2 long-term paths can emerge:

a) C >= B : The entire scheme can run off of investment returns, reducing reliance on A. This is the ideal.

b) A + C = B (see below). Future C may be less than Current C as a result, making the chances of (b) happening again increase.

The vehicle begins to fall apart when A + C From there, the following solutions are brought out to reaffirm the inequality:

- Increase any(working_pop, avg_income, avg_pension_tax_%)

- Decrease any(retirement_pop, avg_benefit_payout)

Some of those modifications are unpalatable to some of the voting population, and thus can't be changed:

- The elderly will not be happy if avg_benefit_payout decreases

- The 'close-to-retire's & the general working pop in general will not be happy if the retirement age increases, in an attempt to reduce retirement_pop

- The working pop, depending on culture, will not be happy if avg_pension_tax_% increases

- Anti-immigrants will not be happy with immigration, in an attempt to increase working_pop

That leaves very little on the table:

- Child tax breaks & incentives in trying to increase working_pop, but this takes time

- Increase avg_income, increasing pressures on businesses in order to keep margins the same

---

There is a way to always keep the scheme alive, when all else fails, but it's a last-ditch effort only reserved for emergencies.

Referring back to the relaxed inequality above (A + C >= B), we can append another inflow stream to the left side of the inequality:

A + C + (D:=(treasury_money_printing)) >= B

This will keep the scheme working, but it sacrifices the long-term value retention of the currency being used. The baseline inflation for said currency increases, giving everyone a 'soft tax' via the debasement of the currency in question.

The implications of incorporating D into the inequality would mean that the currency's ability to keep its value long term will be brought into question. Very little good will come from a weakening currency, unless the country is a net exporter.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#484

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

> contribute nothing to the system.

Maybe the system needs to adapt to humans not the other way around. Why human worth is only linked of how much money they make? It's dystopian.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#485
post #458

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

1. At least in the US, contributions to social security stop once you hit 160k, making it a regressive tax. Raise that cap and like magic, the system is solvent. 2. Growing home prices come from a lack of supply. And you’ve completely flattened an entire generation into one wealth class, which is a gross distortion of the facts.

Wow, I'm old. In my brain, it used to be about 80K. That was a long time ago!

Here is the official history: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/cbb.html

The jump between 2022 and 2023 is huge.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#486
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment. The status quo is so bizarre. Human life has no inherent value unless it makes continuous contributions to "the economy". It would be economically most efficient to drop dead on the day you retire. Thanks, human! All of this to keep a machine running that wrecks the planet and everything living on it, including ourselves. Probably some 50% of the economy is pure bullshit that nobody asked for, just kee…

Sometimes people fail to recognize that the oldest super powerful artificial intelligence is several hundred years old. It’s our economic system. It’s the software running on all our “wet ware” that convinces us to value productivity and money over human life, the environment, or happiness. It is the paper clip maximizer and it’s happily churning away. But we’re not maximizing paper clips we’re maximizing profits .

What does it mean to value human life? I would argue that the economic engine has given us ALL of the improvements in quality of life, and the fact that we live so much longer than we used to, IS valuing human life. There is no other way we could have given ourselves all of the amazing things (tech-wise) we have today.

Why would we value the environment over human lives? That just seems like nature-worship.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#487
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point we have to rethink what "contributing to the system" means. What are web developers designing ads for online casinos contributing?

Great comment. The status quo is so bizarre. Human life has no inherent value unless it makes continuous contributions to "the economy". It would be economically most efficient to drop dead on the day you retire. Thanks, human! All of this to keep a machine running that wrecks the planet and everything living on it, including ourselves. Probably some 50% of the economy is pure bullshit that nobody asked for, just kee…

> The economy doesn't work for the people anymore and drastic productivity increases have somehow not really improved our lives in terms of freedom, time, physical/mental health, quite the opposite.

If trees could just all agree to remain short, they wouldn't need to waste resources to outgrow each other to reach sunlight.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#488
post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

> deficit that was literally created by giving money to large companies and rich people in the form of tax deductions,

I have no particular knowledge of French macro economic policies, but a tax deduction is not "giving money". It is "not taking money". Your framing assumes that corporate or individual earnings belong to the government and the government can decide to allow the money to be "given" to the taxpayer. Whether that is an appropriate arrangement of private property rights and the relationship between the people and the government is a hotly debated topic, to put it mildly.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figured the one upside of retirement was it was a baseline for the poor. If it screws them over too I think it should just be eliminated all together and return the tax to the worker to save/invest on their own.

The origin of the modern pension system in Prussia was not actually designed to let people retire; the age was initially pegged to 70, the life expectancy of Prussians in 1881. American Social Security had an age of 65, but at the time of its passing life expectancy for American men was 58.

> American Social Security had an age of 65, but at the time of its passing life expectancy for American men was 58

That was life expectancy at birth. It makes more sense when considering retirement system design to consider the life expectancy of people who are at least old enough to be in the workforce.

Of the people who were 21 when Social Security passed around 65% of them survived to at least 65.

Of the people who were born around the time Social Security passed, over 70% of those that made it to 21 made it to 65.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#490

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

> . Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82.

Its 73.5 for males. you only have 8 years after retirement :/

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/life-expectancy.htm

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