French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#141

Post by ChemSpider » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:11 PM UTC

dh2022 wrote: post #137

yodsanklai wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is another example of how the state gets its numbers wrong, promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country. France pension system isn't close to bankruptcy. It needs some adjustment but pushing retirement age isn't the only option. Also one thing to understand is that there are two criteria to get a full pension 1. work 43 years (this used to be 36.5 but has been increased 10 years ago)…

But the rules have to change because the demographics changed. The number of old people is increasing, the size of the workforce is not increasing.

That.Is.It. Simple math.

France will (have to) move to 64 and later to 67. If not this year, then in a few years.

Any many EU countries might even have to move to 70, Germany for sure.

People live longer (great), so they also have to work longer.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#142

Post by Twisell » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:12 PM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #136

yodsanklai wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is another example of how the state gets its numbers wrong, promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country. France pension system isn't close to bankruptcy. It needs some adjustment but pushing retirement age isn't the only option. Also one thing to understand is that there are two criteria to get a full pension 1. work 43 years (this used to be 36.5 but has been increased 10 years ago)…

"france has never been as rich in history". Which number are you talking about ? It seems like a pretty hard fact to demonstrate. If you look at the production of france-based international companies, then you're also including the production performed by citizen of other countries. If you look at total revenue per inhabitant, then you need to adjust for inflation, and the fact that some citizen gain revenues from pr…

That's the point right wing neoliberal policies applied in France over the last two decades have degraded life conditions of the commons people and only maximized record profit of french shareholders (this is what OP was referring to "never as rich in history")

So yeah maybe it's time to stop trying to fix the french model by applying the same recipes that increased inequalities in the US in the first place...

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#143

Post by jandrewrogers » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:14 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #127

moremetadata wrote: post #92

This is another example of how the state gets its numbers wrong, promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country. France is not alone, other country's have raised the pension age, but other countries use their food legislation to keep the population docile, high house prices to keep people from protesting for fear of losing a roof over their head, and other tactics people are getting wise to an…

> This is another example of how the state gets its numbers wrong, promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country. France pension system isn't close to bankruptcy. It needs some adjustment but pushing retirement age isn't the only option. Also one thing to understand is that there are two criteria to get a full pension 1. work 43 years (this used to be 36.5 but has been increased 10 years ago)…

> France isn't like the US were people are incentized to build equity for their retirement.

This is true but puzzling for one reason: the US pension system (Social Security) pays retirees the same amount of money as the French one. US pensions are not ungenerous compared to Europe. Americans are incentivized by the government to build equity in addition to their government pension, so that they are not wholly dependent on the government pension -- this has been a consistent part of the messaging.

I think this takes some pressure off the US pension system, since it creates a joint responsibility between the individual and the government, rather than putting it all on the government to unilaterally solve this problem to everyone's satisfaction. I do understand that it is easier to build equity in the US than Europe, so that probably is a factor in how the population views it.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#144

Post by jobs_throwaway » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:19 PM UTC

olddustytrail wrote: post #122

Izikiel43 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After seeing the pensioners in my home country living in poverty because of economic crisis destroying their pensions, the government using pension money as if it was its own, and being actively hostile to pensioners by delaying trials to pay the pension money fairly waiting for them to die, I will take a 401(k) over that always, my money is mine and no one else's.

I have some bad news for you then: many of the companies that provide 401(k) were on the verge of collapse in 2008. The only reason people didn't lose their pensions entirely was because the government bailed them out... You can always lose your money. Best to accept that and not worry too much.

How does that work? The 401(k) providers are lending out the securities that their customers own?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#145

Post by Twisell » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:21 PM UTC

ChemSpider wrote: post #141

dh2022 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the rules have to change because the demographics changed. The number of old people is increasing, the size of the workforce is not increasing.

That.Is.It. Simple math. France will (have to) move to 64 and later to 67. If not this year, then in a few years. Any many EU countries might even have to move to 70, Germany for sure. People live longer (great), so they also have to work longer.

Do you frankly believe that french civilisation is dumb or masochist enough to have produced like ten thousands of hours of passionates TV debates (to pick only one metric) if the underlying math was simple?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#146

Post by nitwit005 » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:22 PM UTC

moremetadata wrote: post #92

This is another example of how the state gets its numbers wrong, promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country. France is not alone, other country's have raised the pension age, but other countries use their food legislation to keep the population docile, high house prices to keep people from protesting for fear of losing a roof over their head, and other tactics people are getting wise to an…

No one can predict this stuff decades out. You'd need to somehow predict technological changes, major wars, and other events that require basically being a prophet.

Even when people do vow not to cut these programs, they are planning on making a change, it's just what they plan to change is the tax rate or amount of debt issued.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#147

Post by HDThoreaun » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:22 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #135

HDThoreaun wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do this and literally every billionaire will immediately leave. Seems a bit short sighted.

That's the fun part - your military makes it so they can't leave.

Europe has open borders. How is that going to work?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#148

Post by conradfr » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:23 PM UTC

ChemSpider wrote: post #141

dh2022 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the rules have to change because the demographics changed. The number of old people is increasing, the size of the workforce is not increasing.

That.Is.It. Simple math. France will (have to) move to 64 and later to 67. If not this year, then in a few years. Any many EU countries might even have to move to 70, Germany for sure. People live longer (great), so they also have to work longer.

It's already 67 for a full pension if you have not contributed enough "quarters".

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#149

Post by hartator » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:23 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #134

justeleblanc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Where do you think the money comes from? Thin air? Any increase in the value of pension funds (for example) is coming from the workers.

The money is just an entry in the accounting ledger allocating society's labor. The pension fund can increase to trillions and quadrillions, and it will not make a difference if there is not enough people willing to change bedpans for as low of a price as was originally expected.

Yes, they can play with inflation and debt, but at the end of the day, it's just a question of people resource and time allocation. Money is just a proxy.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#150

Post by aaomidi » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 8:24 PM UTC

ChemSpider wrote: post #141

dh2022 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the rules have to change because the demographics changed. The number of old people is increasing, the size of the workforce is not increasing.

That.Is.It. Simple math. France will (have to) move to 64 and later to 67. If not this year, then in a few years. Any many EU countries might even have to move to 70, Germany for sure. People live longer (great), so they also have to work longer.

So you're telling me with all the technological increases we've had, France can't afford to feed its people for the few extra years of life expectancy they have?

That seems absurd, and it seems like if that is truly the case, then a lot of other things should change before this.

France does have a history of not accepting crap from the ruling class with bloody results for the ruling class. Less the ruling class forget that.