French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#111

Post by nemo44x » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:20 PM UTC

> "We haven't been heard or listened to...."

Maybe they have been heard and listened too and the democratically elected government of the people disagrees. Just because you don't get your way doesn't mean you haven't been listened to.

> "We are using the only means we have left: it's the hard strike ... we are not going to give up."

This is the part where the petulant child that doesn't get what it wants threatens to hold its breath until it turns blue. This is anti-democratic and nothing but coercive, naked extortion. Like literally extortion.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#112

Post by yazantapuz » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:21 PM UTC

Izikiel43 wrote: post #104

aetherson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people assume that pension systems ought to or actually do work as savings/investment systems, like private 401(k)s do. So you pay into the system when you're working age, your money is saved, then it is paid out to you later.

After seeing the pensioners in my home country living in poverty because of economic crisis destroying their pensions, the government using pension money as if it was its own, and being actively hostile to pensioners by delaying trials to pay the pension money fairly waiting for them to die, I will take a 401(k) over that always, my money is mine and no one else's.

Argentinian? The government theft of the private funds was outrageous. Although the AFJPs were far from being a 401(k) system.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#113

Post by eniotna » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

Izikiel43 wrote: post #104

aetherson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people assume that pension systems ought to or actually do work as savings/investment systems, like private 401(k)s do. So you pay into the system when you're working age, your money is saved, then it is paid out to you later.

After seeing the pensioners in my home country living in poverty because of economic crisis destroying their pensions, the government using pension money as if it was its own, and being actively hostile to pensioners by delaying trials to pay the pension money fairly waiting for them to die, I will take a 401(k) over that always, my money is mine and no one else's.

Money is never truly yours if you are not the issuer. That's why we need more "hard" money (gold, bitcoin).

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#114

Post by tpmx » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:25 PM UTC

Thlom wrote: post #7

crmd wrote: post #4

A wealth tax (instead of income tax) is the best way to reverse the capital hoarding which is destroying modern society. Go after their assets.

We have a tiny wealth tax in Norway, so now the richest are moving to Switzerland.

The wealth tax in Norway:

$160k - $1.9M: 1% per year

$1.9M and above: 1.4% per year

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#115

Post by rwmj » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:25 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #105

justeleblanc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Where do you think the money comes from? Thin air? Any increase in the value of pension funds (for example) is coming from the workers.

Isn't the UK using pension funds?

It is (so is the US). But ultimately productive value from workers must be transferred to retired people. How exactly that happens, whether through deferred spending power (ie savings/investments) or through direct payments, it has to happen.

Although I admit that there being other countries in the world does change the calculus a bit; it would be possible (albeit weird and unsustainable) for everyone in France to be retired, so long as say the Philippines was young and working and French retirees owned all the shares in Philippine companies.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#116

Post by yazantapuz » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:26 PM UTC

argentinian wrote: post #109

omegaworks wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that causes inflation which quickly erodes the value of the payment Pension payments cover basic subsistence-level costs for goods that can be mitigated by supply-side production and productivity increases. Claiming that they cause inflation is just rebranded austerity politics. Inflation is caused by fraudulent debt-relief for "businesses" like we saw with PPP and low interest rates that create asset price and shi…

> Inflation is caused by fraudulent debt-relief for "businesses" Sure? Tell that to Argentina, Venezuela, Zimbawe and Turkey.

I don't know why someone downvoted you, as you are right. But it seems that gigaton of useless little pieces of paper called pesos with which that the governments has flooded the economy since decades has nothing to do with out inflation problems.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#117

Post by omegaworks » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

moremetadata wrote: post #92

This is another example of how the state gets its numbers wrong, promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country. France is not alone, other country's have raised the pension age, but other countries use their food legislation to keep the population docile, high house prices to keep people from protesting for fear of losing a roof over their head, and other tactics people are getting wise to an…

>promising something it can not deliver without bankrupting the country.

If the government can not get something basic like covering subsistence-level costs for its population over 62 working without bankrupting the country, the government is broken, the economic system is broken and shutting it down is an appropriate response.

Technology and efficiency has caused labor productivity to increase [1] and that increase has not been captured in wages. It has been instead captured by private capital as profit.

1. https://www.lemonde.fr/blog/piketty/2017/01/09/of-productivi...

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#118

Post by rahen » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

flashfaffe2 wrote: post #106

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #87

The french pension reform attempts have been going on for decades . I remember in the mid-90s a huge, weeks- (months-?) long public transit strike which, funnily enough, kick-started Parisian's interest in roller-blading (and led to the awesome weekly Friday-night roller-blading tour [1]. If it's your thing, I highly recommend it! But be prepared to have to go over some cobblestone sections) France's system has the w…

French here: Though the problem is well known (at least for 40 years), No french governments has considered diversifying the source of the revenue funding the pension system. Actually its worse as the only capitalisation existing are in a process to be nationalised. Moreover, this reform is purely the outcome of political game. Macron electorat is mainly the 'boomers' who fully beneficiated of th situation ( in fact…

As a French, I have absolutely no trust in the government to manage my pension. And no desire to hand them that power either.

But as usual they'll fight tooth and nail to keep their monopoly, as they like us to depend on them as much as possible.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#119

Post by Timshel » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:33 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #111

> "We haven't been heard or listened to...." Maybe they have been heard and listened too and the democratically elected government of the people disagrees. Just because you don't get your way doesn't mean you haven't been listened to. > "We are using the only means we have left: it's the hard strike ... we are not going to give up." This is the part where the petulant child that doesn't get what it wants threatens to…

With comments like this you are closer to the petulant child than the people, some with low paying jobs, who decided that the issue is critical enough that they prefer a loss of income in the short term ...

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#120

Post by Alupis » Tue, Mar 07, 2023, 7:33 PM UTC

rat9988 wrote: post #101

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #87

The french pension reform attempts have been going on for decades . I remember in the mid-90s a huge, weeks- (months-?) long public transit strike which, funnily enough, kick-started Parisian's interest in roller-blading (and led to the awesome weekly Friday-night roller-blading tour [1]. If it's your thing, I highly recommend it! But be prepared to have to go over some cobblestone sections) France's system has the w…

it isn't a sustainable system. This is wrong. We have an institute that has one mission. Evaluate its sustainibility, and it disagrees with you.

In other news, lawyers say you need a lawyer, plumbers say you need a plumber, etc.

Not a single pension program on earth is sustainable - including the US' Social Security System. All of them are political 3rd rails and kill careers of anyone seeking to do meaningful reform.

Why did we get to a situation where the government is in charge of safeguarding your retirement and wellbeing? It's insane... we should compel people to have IRA's or some sort of retirement account, but the money needs to be under the control of the person it belongs to.