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Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

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Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#161
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the father says that the etymology of all English words can be traced back to Greek[1]. When someone challenges him with the word "Kimono," he pauses for a second, and then concocts a semi-plausible sounding explanation about how the word evolved from a Greek word. A comedy, but I think it does reflect how a lot of people can be so impressed by their own culture that…

> For example, I was surprised to find that a common myth among Germans was that the USA almost had German become its official language, and German only lost out by a single vote. That myth does exist, but I do not think that it is a belief commonly held by Germans (i.e. people living in Germany, not referring to those US citizens tracing their heritage to the Fatherland here). I heard about it only long after crossi…

I assumed it was common because I've run into different Germans who brought up the myth to me, and were surprised I didn't know about it (treating it as common knowledge). But it's certainly possible the people I've known aren't a great representation of the general population.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#162
post #114

I remember being taught in school about the important Muslim contributions to science, philosophy, and mathematics. It has been interesting to learn over time that much of this was inherited from Indian scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians (and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for).

> and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for

To be blunt: Islamic invaders to the Indian subcontinent were by and large iconoclastic, at best intolerant and at worst genocidal (by forced conversions, marriages, outright murder, etc) of the native Dharmic (read: Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain) population, and burned down, looted, and deconstructed Hindu and Buddhist places of worship to construct their own mosques on top of said ruins.

The India-Pakistan debacle today is an extension of a nearly millennium-long Hindu-Muslim feud.

The burning of Nalanda University (whether or not it is a 'university' is an orthogonal matter) is another facet in this feud. The decline of Buddhism in the late classical era in the Indian subcontinent—already on a somewhat downhill slope, due to Hinduism co-opting much Buddhist thought, and in general being more popular and accessible than the ascetic demands of monastic Buddhism—was drastically accelerated by the Islamic incursions into the Indian subcontinent.

The Ayodhya mosque-temple riots are another facet of this clash. Western commentators glibly say 'Hindus are anti-Muslim'. The issue in India is so much more nuanced than that; there is bad blood on both sides going back a thousand years. Islam cannot escape from these charges: the religion is fundamentally intolerant of non-Abrahamic ones, especially ones with liberal iconography (like Hinduism and Buddhism).

There is a reason why (most of) the oldest and largest Hindu temples are in South India, which mostly escaped from the period of Muslim rule relatively unscathed. There are (possibly apocryphal) stories about how the idols at several temples (such as the one in Srirangam, Trichy) were relocated to mountain redoubts to prevent them being stolen and melted down by 'the invaders'.

The destruction of Buddhist iconography by Islam (or its followers) continues to this day: the Bamyan Buddhas in Afghanistan were blown up by the Taliban in 2001.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#164

[dead]

I think this goes a little too far. While the madrasas were indeed religious in nature, they did a fine job of teaching one Leonardo Bonacci the thereto obscure subject of al-jabr, and the professors granted their students the ijazah. And we would be remiss to ignore the proximity of the Pandidakterion ("all-teachings") in Constantinople:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Constantinople

Indeed, we can trace the following sequence of events:

1054: Great Schism divides the Byzantine Empire and Western Europe

1048-73: Holy Roman Emperor Henry III attempts to dominate the election of popes

1050-80: Bishop, later (1073) Pope Gregory VII initiates the Gregorian Reforms, reigniting interest in the legal codes of Justinian, which gave legitimacy to the Church's autonomy contra the Emperor

1088: Irnerius begins teaching Roman law at Bologna, supposedly teaching the Four Doctors of Bologna (disputed by some historians), who would complete the medieval exegesis of Roman law in Europe

The principal innovation of the European university, which occurred sometime in the early 12th century, was the granting of degrees by the doctoral committee, rather than the advisor. As with most achievements in history, the development of the university was a gradual process, not a single event. The incorporation of students and professors into the universitates scholarum and colegia doctorum was initially necessary as collective bargaining against the mercurial and often conflicting state and church authority in medieval Europe, but eventually proved to maintain a higher standard of quality than had been previously possible.

We can therefore trace several "firsts":

- the collective school for multiple subjects, somewhere between Plato's Akademia (-387) and Theodosius's Pandidakterion (425)

- the residential school where students came to live and study, Nalanda (427)

- the certification of studies completed as a license to teach, ijazah, Al-Qarawiyyin (857) or earlier

- the collectivization of students and professors, Bologna (1084-1155, uncertain)

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#165
post #114

I remember being taught in school about the important Muslim contributions to science, philosophy, and mathematics. It has been interesting to learn over time that much of this was inherited from Indian scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians (and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for).

> and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for To be blunt: Islamic invaders to the Indian subcontinent were by and large iconoclastic, at best intolerant and at worst genocidal (by forced conversions, marriages, outright murder, etc) of the native Dharmic (read: Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain) population, and burned down, looted, and deconstructed Hindu and Buddhist places of worship to constr…

> The India-Pakistan debacle today is an extension of a nearly millennium-long Hindu-Muslim feud.

Not really. A lot of these arbitrary borders in modern times came about due to actions of former colonial powers. Prior to colonial times, there were many individual kingdoms/territories throughout the subcontinent. Other examples of arbitrary borders include the Durand line, and the Wakhan corridor.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#167
post #114

I remember being taught in school about the important Muslim contributions to science, philosophy, and mathematics. It has been interesting to learn over time that much of this was inherited from Indian scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians (and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for).

> and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for To be blunt: Islamic invaders to the Indian subcontinent were by and large iconoclastic, at best intolerant and at worst genocidal (by forced conversions, marriages, outright murder, etc) of the native Dharmic (read: Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain) population, and burned down, looted, and deconstructed Hindu and Buddhist places of worship to constr…

> The Ayodhya mosque-temple riots are another facet of this clash. Western commentators glibly say 'Hindus are anti-Muslim'. The issue in India is so much more nuanced than that; there is bad blood on both sides going back a thousand years. Islam cannot escape from these charges: the religion is fundamentally intolerant of non-Abrahamic ones, especially ones with liberal iconography (like Hinduism and Buddhism).

Bhaktiyar Khilji burned down Nalanda University but there is a town (Bhaktiyarpur) nearby named after him! I guess this can happen only in India. Now if you try to change the name of the town it will be called anti Muslim move.

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#168
post #114

I remember being taught in school about the important Muslim contributions to science, philosophy, and mathematics. It has been interesting to learn over time that much of this was inherited from Indian scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians (and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for).

> and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for To be blunt: Islamic invaders to the Indian subcontinent were by and large iconoclastic, at best intolerant and at worst genocidal (by forced conversions, marriages, outright murder, etc) of the native Dharmic (read: Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain) population, and burned down, looted, and deconstructed Hindu and Buddhist places of worship to constr…

The unfortunate reality is that society is still not evolved enough to judge and pass judgements on certain viewpoints and their impact on global history unless the said criticism is of Catholicism , Christianity or casteism amongst Hindus. I hope there is more open criticisms of ideologies especially in the modern era when people find it a convenient hiding place.

Fun fact: Indian laws are not the same for all religions even today. Muslims have their own version of personal laws closely derived from Sharia. This happens in a 'secular' country

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#169
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it has been disquieting to learn what “inherited” is a euphemism for To be blunt: Islamic invaders to the Indian subcontinent were by and large iconoclastic, at best intolerant and at worst genocidal (by forced conversions, marriages, outright murder, etc) of the native Dharmic (read: Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain) population, and burned down, looted, and deconstructed Hindu and Buddhist places of worship to constr…

> The Ayodhya mosque-temple riots are another facet of this clash. Western commentators glibly say 'Hindus are anti-Muslim'. The issue in India is so much more nuanced than that; there is bad blood on both sides going back a thousand years. Islam cannot escape from these charges: the religion is fundamentally intolerant of non-Abrahamic ones, especially ones with liberal iconography (like Hinduism and Buddhism). Bhak…

Recently Aurangabad and Osmanabad in MH were renamed to Sambhajinagar and Dharashiv. So the only people who will oppose are those without understanding of history or those who have not read Aurangzeb's own historian's words and how everything he did was sanctioned by the holy scriptures including killing, subjugating people from other religions

Re: Nalanda University flourished for more than seven centuries

#170
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or the fact Muslims are just as capable as Christians at promoting theories with very little evidence to support their arguments. Both of your assertions are unproven theories, with the evidence against them: bachelor originally meant a young knight who followed another (though the etymology before that is uncertain), and academic robes derive from similar (European) mediaeval clerical and secular clothing.

There's a scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the father says that the etymology of all English words can be traced back to Greek[1]. When someone challenges him with the word "Kimono," he pauses for a second, and then concocts a semi-plausible sounding explanation about how the word evolved from a Greek word. A comedy, but I think it does reflect how a lot of people can be so impressed by their own culture that…

True, but let me give you a counterexample. In India ,a lot of 'modern' liberal historians promote hating own culture, history and the roots denigrating Hinduism and its scriptures as origin of all things bad such as casteism. This has surprisingly led a lot of neutral folks more to take a tougher stance of defending own culture even though we do not necessarily practice it to the letter like some groups.

Battle of ideologies, groups, regions and culture is as old as history and does not seem like it will ever completely die down. We need a more hybrid understanding where we evolve with time and apply modern lens to historical ideas carefully. Without ideological pride in Christianity, white superiority I doubt most of the European countries would've had been the colonizing superpowers they became controlling most of the world.

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