Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat • Hacker News Board

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#131

Post by nl » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:22 PM UTC

ozmodiar wrote: post #56

dwohnitmok wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Taiwanese concept of "unification" is not what you're thinking of. The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world where Taiwan is/becomes a province of the PRC, they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces, that is where they are in the seat of power in Beijing. I.e. this is something going in the opposite direction. The opposing faction rejects t…

I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland. The reason they don't declare themselves a country is because China won't support it and they're worried it would trigger an invasion. China prefers Taiwan be a rebellious province rather than an independent country because it strengthens China's claim to the island. The KMT used to be feeling out a HK…

Your impressions are all true, but Taiwan hasn't given up formal claim to mainland China.

This is important because it allows the "policy of deliberate ambiguity":

> There is deliberate ambiguity regarding the government of the country of 'China' (as well as what land this country constitutes). Currently, two governments claim legitimate rule and sovereignty over all of China, which they claim includes Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, as well as some other islands.

> those from Taiwan who attend the Olympic Games and other various international organizations and events participate under the deliberately ambiguous name of "Chinese Taipei"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#132

Post by tablespoon » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:22 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #117

uniqueuid wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While these facts are important, they sound like Taiwan is unequivocally part of the PRC. But that's probably not what people in Taiwan or many western nations would say. - Taiwan clearly has the outward appearance of a full-fledged nation - There are (few) countries that have recognized it as a sovereign nation - Taiwan maintains some form of diplomatic relations, and Nancy Pelosi's recent visit was a very public si…

> they sound like Taiwan is unequivocally part of the PRC No, they sound like Taiwan is part of China, something the entire world and Taiwan itself officially recognizes. It's like the US had a civil war and the losing side flees to Hawaii and in 2090 we still arguing whether it is part of not of US or should it declare independence.

> No, they sound like Taiwan is part of China, something the entire world and Taiwan itself officially recognizes.

That presumes the "official" position is the genuine position, which is often not the case.

With regards to Taiwan, "official" positions are often lies tied in knots to appease Mainland China's sensibilities.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#133

Post by Manuel_D » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:22 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #75

aseerdbnarng wrote: post #57

While the Chinese threat to Taiwan is not something to be dismissed completely, the article doesn’t mention just how incredibly vulnerable China is to possible sanctions targeting their food supply. China imports most of its food and as their farmland is quite poor, its hugely dependent on fertiliser to feed itself. Sanctions targeting these basics would be devastating so I really struggle to see a convincing case fo…

I find it funny how much we in the west demonize China while we have attacked them, colonized them, consistently tampered with them, didn't recognize the PRC till the late 70s. China has never laid a finger on the west, we did, yet we keep demonizing them, meddling in their own business (HK, e.g.) all while we fight wars all around the globe, spy everyone and overthrow governments left and right.

The PRC did send troops to Korea during the Korean war, the result of which is the north Korean dictatorship that abuses it's citizens and threatens nuclear war. It also drove out the KMT, which was part of "the west" in the sense that they were the principle Chinese Allied faction combating the empire of Japan during WWII. That and continued violation of territorial waters of surrounding countries. "China hasn't laid a finger" is quite the understatement.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#134

Post by runsWphotons » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:22 PM UTC

richardw wrote: post #44

cm2187 wrote: post #7

What I don't get is that to invade Taiwan, China needs a large amount of ships and cargo planes, both of which seem very vulnerable to modern missiles (as the Russian army found out in Ukraine). Do the chinese have a solution for that?

> China needs a large amount of ships and cargo planes We're watching warfare change right now. There are many paths to success for China, given enough attention and focus. Just one: 100 million drones to deal with all the fixed defences, and then you arrive to negotiate once you've repeatedly overwhelmed the enemy for 6 months. We've spent the last few decades helping China build the biggest manufacturing engine in…

I mean TSMC would likely burn everything to the ground. It seems more like no one would have the chips, until the US onshores the capability, which seems much less than 20 years away.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#135

Post by newbie578 » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:23 PM UTC

I'll never understand how are there so many CCP apologetics on HN.. Just read some of the comments.. Especially when people try to reason that a democratic USA is worse for your personal benefit than a communist China..

I do wonder if those kind of people actually lived in a communist country..

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#136

Post by tarkin2 » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:23 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #31

The elephant in the room is that Taiwan is a Chinese province and Taiwan's legal standing is not in question [1]. This is the position held by the UN, and it's the fundamental basis for having diplomatic relations between US and China per Potsdam Proclamation [2] that was signed 77 years ago between China, the US & the UK. This position has never officially changed. And here's what US State Department says on their o…

You're being disingenuous. Look at the articles mentioned in the quote.

"Taiwan Relations Act, the three U.S.-China Joint Communiques, and the Six Assurances". In particular: "The United States would not formally recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan"[1].

So the US supports a "One China policy", "does not support Taiwanese independence" and "does not formally recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan." And it will supply Taiwan with weapons to defend itself, giving defacto independence. And, as you quote, the US opposed any unilateral changes to the status quo.

Confusing? Yes. Yet you're misleading people with your post, frankly speaking, if you telling people to "Just read the defence department's website".

Morally, China is trying to remove Taiwan's defacto independence, for reasons that completely ignore any idea of self-determination, whereas the US is supplying Taiwan with the weapons to choose.

There's nothing stopping Taiwan's democratic government and its people from choosing to give China control, since there are pro PRC parties in Taiwan, and even so--they have decided to resist PRC control.

You can, of course, argue the US should not give Taiwan the right of self-determination, that it should stay out of the affairs of other countries, since there are obviously economic reasons in addition to moral; but nonetheless issues of self-determination are at the heart--since the people and their well-being are always at the heart.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Assurances

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#137

Post by postingawayonhn » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:24 PM UTC

yogthos wrote: post #130

postingawayonhn wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They hold that official position because China demands they do to maintain relations. The US and most other western countries don't actually believe that.

US has no business interfering in Taiwan. Period.

The free people of the world have a right to protect themselves from authoritarians and to assist other free people in doing so. That seems like a pretty fundamental moral principle to follow.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#138

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:25 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #65

jmclnx wrote: post #3

All they need to do is look at what happened in Hong Kong. If China did not do what they did in Hong Kong, Taiwan may be headed to some kind on unification. Now, they would be crazy to even entertain that thought. This issue lies directly on China and no one else. If I had a say in Taiwan, I would announce it is now a independent Country.

> I would announce it is now a independent Country. I am disappointed to see HN devolve into armchair general territory. In this specific case, the constitution ruling over Taiwan is the Constitution of Republic of China adopted in 1946 in Nanjing, before the PRC was a thing. In general most of Taiwan does not believe it needs to do anything to "proclaim" their independence, only a tiny minority want to change the co…

That reminds me when Ma Ying-jeou was President in Taiwan and was asked about independence, and he replied "Independence from what? The ROC has been independent since 1912".

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#139

Post by yogthos » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:25 PM UTC

manuelabeledo wrote: post #105

yogthos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe one of us didn't. Also, maybe keep reading the statement from US State Department until you comprehend it.

I read it. I'm quite familiar with the US and UN positions on China. The first link doesn't say what you thing it does, though. It is even written by the de facto ambassador of Taiwan to Japan. But even ignoring all those links, Taiwan is de facto an independent country. The PRC cannot assert any sort of power in the island, and PRC citizens are not considered Taiwanese nationals.

[flagged]

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#140

Post by tablespoon » Mon, Mar 06, 2023, 11:26 PM UTC

stephc_int13 wrote: post #112

There is one big problem with military force: training soldiers and officers is so difficult that real military powers always have to fight somewhere to "stay in shape" so to speak. A generation that never fought is likely to be confronted with a very harsh reality on the field. Luckily, China has not been fighting much during the past few decades.

> Luckily, China has not been fighting much during the past few decades.

On the other hand, neither has Taiwan.