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Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

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Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#111

Post by IgorPartola »

jpol wrote: post #100
IgorPartola wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to give up a key. They would be asking you to decrypt the drive. Whether that requires you to enter a passphrase or turn on the webcam and do a jig, it doesn't matter. They have no interest in your key/password/secret 4 digit code. They want the contents of the drive. Now they could be playing at a disadvantage, but the point is that the 5th amendment does not enter into here. If the police have a warr…

Shorter Version: It does not matter whether the government forces you to do something (e.g. open a combination lock), as opposed to providing information (e.g. tell them the combination). The deciding factor is whether there is an invasion of your mental privacy inherent in the government compulsion. Whether you disclose the combination or open the lock yourself, the contents of your mind are being used to incriminat…

In other words if my password is "I am guilty" I can invoke the 5th and tell the grand jury that I will not tell them my password.

However, when the grand jury says "produce the crooked accounting books we know you have (witnesses have testified that you have them) that are stores on your laptop", am I required to somehow produce them or do I just say "nope, not going to happen." In the latter case, if those books are the difference between an acquittal and a conviction, do they just let you go, or do they hold you in contempt until you give in?

Lastly, what is the difference between using the contents of my mind when entering a password vs telling the police where I left the key to my safe?

Very lastly, just do not talk to anyone ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#112

Post by trotsky »

Perhaps I don't understand some dynamic here, but what prevents someone from just stating that they no longer know the pass phrase? I thought that was more or less a free pass, as no one can prove what you do or don't remember. Hence why the phrase "I'm sorry, I don't recall that senator" is used so often when everyone knows they're lying.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#113

Post by X-Istence »

IgorPartola wrote: post #74
nirvana wrote: post #60

I wonder about this: What if the key to the encryption is written on a dozen seemingly random notes on yellow sticky notes in your office full of yellow sticky notes? Or, it is composed of the last letter on each page of a series of innocuous looking documents, such that the government might seize the documents but naturally in the process of doing so, scramble the documents order rendering the password irretrievable…

Sure. You could do even better: keep your computer on at all times and keep everything you do in RAM. No encryption is necessary here, just a $100 UPS and your laptop's own battery. The problem with all these comments about "what if I give half of my phrase to a friend?" or "what if I write it in the dust at the entrance to my house and the FBI wipes it away when they bust in?" is that it doesn't really address the c…

They make devices that can safely transfer power from the wall socket to a UPS so that they can take the device with them.

Take a look at this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erq4TO_a3z8

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#114

Post by X-Istence »

trotsky wrote: post #109
IgorPartola wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. You could do even better: keep your computer on at all times and keep everything you do in RAM. No encryption is necessary here, just a $100 UPS and your laptop's own battery. The problem with all these comments about "what if I give half of my phrase to a friend?" or "what if I write it in the dust at the entrance to my house and the FBI wipes it away when they bust in?" is that it doesn't really address the c…

For what it's worth, it's very common for forensics teams to get memory dumps before the computers are turned off or moved.

Why dump memory when you can do this instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erq4TO_a3z8

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#115

Post by IgorPartola »

trotsky wrote: post #109
IgorPartola wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. You could do even better: keep your computer on at all times and keep everything you do in RAM. No encryption is necessary here, just a $100 UPS and your laptop's own battery. The problem with all these comments about "what if I give half of my phrase to a friend?" or "what if I write it in the dust at the entrance to my house and the FBI wipes it away when they bust in?" is that it doesn't really address the c…

For what it's worth, it's very common for forensics teams to get memory dumps before the computers are turned off or moved.

No problem. With enough money you could set up a dead man switch to erase your laptop if you step more than 3 feet away from it which is bound to happen if the FBI drags you away. Or set up a voice recognition system that would listen for the words "Open up! Police!".

My point is that with all these amateur lawyer "I can outsmart them on a technicality" schemes I think it needs to be said that you probably don't want to do any of that. Instead, if you do have something that you feel you don't want to expose, use whole disk encryption with hidden volumes, duress codes, etc. but keep your options open. The worst possible scenario to be in is where the only way to prove that you are innocent (or to enter into a plea bargain) is to decrypt your drive but some crazy scheme of yours now prevents you from ever recovering your passphrase.

EDIT: Can someone please explain the downvotes?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#116

Post by jrockway »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #94
jrockway wrote: post #79

"I forgot the key." Done. (Presumably serving an 18 month contempt sentence in a county jail is better than the 25-to-life in a maximum security federal prison you'd get if they saw the contents of your hard drive.)

If I'm not mistaken, there's no limit on contempt of court. A... stubborn judge could keep you detained until you're no longer in contempt.

I've read that it's tied to a particular grand jury session, which is something like 18 months.

Either way, the longest contempt sentence ever was 14 years, which is nothing compared to what you'll get if the government convicts you of laundering money, selling drugs, possessing child porn, or all the other crimes that you might have documented on your computer.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#117

Post by IgorPartola »

jpol wrote: post #102
sdkmvx wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is no different when they have a warrant for files (papers, information) on your encrypted drive (safe) and are asking you to open it by whatever means. This seems acceptable if they have a warrant for the contents of your safe. If they had a warrant for "evidence" and no knowledge or reason to believe that it was in the safe, could they open it/force you to open it simply because you own the safe. Similarly,…

Criminal contempt would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and the elements of proving the defendant's failure to provide the encryption key would include (1) showing that the key exists and (2) showing that they key is in the defendant's possession.

One example would be a witness sees you enter your passphrase and unlock your system, no?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#118

Post by ww520 »

geoffschmidt wrote: post #97

Let's look a little bit further down the road, say 100 or 200 years. If the computer is implanted in my head, can you compel me to give you the data in it? What if the computer is made partly of cells? Just how tightly integrated do I have to be with the storage device before it's part of the private, protected sphere of my personal consciousness? I don't mean to be frivolous. As we become ever more dependent on clou…

Well, governments can compel to collect DNA sampling from you now. Why not go further and compel to read your implanted chip? They can collect your recorded GPS location as evidence.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#119

Post by [deleted] »

EwanG wrote: post #66
techiferous wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. I don't have any of these. I'm not being contrary, just saying you should update your view that everyone has these things.

Are you SURE you don't have any of these? That's one of the interesting things I've learned over the years. You may THINK you don't have any, or that you have never gone out of your way to get such. But that presumes that when you visited YouTube that the unlicensed excerpt you watched wasn't cached on your computer, and won't be found and used as evidence against you. That a friend or family member never borrowed yo…

[deleted]

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#120

Post by [deleted] »

batista wrote: post #65
techiferous wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. I don't have any of these. I'm not being contrary, just saying you should update your view that everyone has these things.

"Everyone", in common language, is not equivalent to the mathematical "all elements in the set". It just means "almost everybody, excluding very few people that might as well be statistical error". Actually, even 95% of the people qualifies as "everyone" for all practical purposes. You might want to take a look at this: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html

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