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Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

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Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#31

Post by ChrisNorstrom »

Simucal wrote: post #15
ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #3

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the A…

I'm curious what the courts would say when told that it is possible to have a hidden inner volume that is impossible to detect and when I hand over my key it may just be the outer containers, not the hidden inner container that I have unlocked.

The best way to hide something is with misdirection and dead ends. It's by letting someone win a little but not all the way.

If you're a straight male just make a second inner hidden volume and put a ton of gay porn on it. After a few days of arguing with the court just reveal your password to it and they'll think "oh shit, this is what he was hiding. Well nothing to see here, moving on. That's all."

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#32

Post by sukuriant »

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #3

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the A…

> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents.

I make it a point to not have pirated movies. I torrent linux distributions and free music (OC Remix); and I buy my software or use free alternatives. It may be true that most people have cracked software, pirated movies and [illegal] torrents, but it's not everyone.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#33

Post by waiwai933 »

If I encrypt a letter by hand using, say, Caesar's cipher (despite how weak it is), could a court compel me (i.e. is there common law precedent in the US or elsewhere) to decrypt said letter? Surely there must be some precedent before we had computers and whatnot, right? This, after all, seems to be the closest-fitting analogy I can think of—both the "key to lock" and "privacy of mind" arguments seem to be stretching it.

Unless the reason they're using these analogies is that no one has ever brought a non-digital encryption case before a court, which would make sense as to why they're not consulting that precedent, but surely 230 years of US law and several times that of British law would bring up something...

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#34

Post by kibwen »

Simucal wrote: post #15
ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #3

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the A…

I'm curious what the courts would say when told that it is possible to have a hidden inner volume that is impossible to detect and when I hand over my key it may just be the outer containers, not the hidden inner container that I have unlocked.

My gut reaction to this article was that something like what you've described must exist, although I wasn't certain if it was possible to completely hide a volume from an intimate inspection. What tools are you referring to?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#35

Post by marshray »

Karunamon wrote: post #5

This is an interesting case. From a civil liberties, card-carrying ACLU member standpoint, I'm all for the "anti" side of this - keep the gov't out. On the other hand, there's a decent case made that establishing this kind of precedent would basically mean that if criminals are smart enough to use PGP, then that data can never be used against them. Since you can be compelled to turn over a physical key via due proces…

why can you not also be compelled to turn over a digital one?

Because you may have forgotten it. It's likely you would not have had access to the hardware in the many months these things drag out. I know I've forgotten some complex passwords in a day or two.

Also, there may be an argument to be made that by demonstrating your knowledge of the password you are being forced to confess to ownership of whatever content is unlocked. Although the lock-and-key metaphor seems very attractive, it not necessarily the case that "decryption" equals "authentication".

Encryption is easy, authentication is the harder problem! There have been encryption products sold and used that did not provide effective authentication, i.e., someone who didn't know the key could tamper with the contents of the disk so that it decrypted to something else.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#36

Post by corin_ »

Karunamon wrote: post #21
Simucal wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TrueCrypt supports Hidden OS partitions much like its normal hidden containers and it asks for these passwords at boot. You could enter one password and have it boot into a boring Windows XP environment while the true password would boot to your actual environment with all your secret files.

There's the file time problem, though. Okay, let's say you're Joe Randomguy and you keep two XP partitions. One that you actively use and might have all manner of contraband on it, and another "boring" one for showing any would-be snoopers. It's Jan 2012. What do you think is going to happen when they see that the one you gave up the code to hasn't been touched since July 2011? Does Truecrypt have an option to not re…

How do you prove in a court of law that a.) those timestamps are correct and b.) I have definitely used it since July 2011?

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#37

Post by techiferous »

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #3

The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal? Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the A…

> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents.

I don't have any of these. I'm not being contrary, just saying you should update your view that everyone has these things.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#38

Post by jwhitlark »

burgerbrain wrote: post #22
Karunamon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents That's a bit of a leap, really. Also, Truecrypt's deniable encryption here doesn't seem like it would help, since they're talking at the computer level. Presumably, a power on or hard drive password. Assuming there's only one volume, you put that one in and the attacker has the keys to the kingdom. Besides that, most averages joes wouldn't go through this kin…

I think it is quite a leap to assume that anything more than a minority don't have things like that.

That's not a leap at all. Many people don't have things like that, either for moral reasons, or there just don't care. Of the four computers I maintain for others, none of them has anything on your list.

You can despise the MPAA without downloading movies. Just as you can desire privacy without committing any crimes.

Re: Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops

#40

Post by icebraining »

Karunamon wrote: post #5

This is an interesting case. From a civil liberties, card-carrying ACLU member standpoint, I'm all for the "anti" side of this - keep the gov't out. On the other hand, there's a decent case made that establishing this kind of precedent would basically mean that if criminals are smart enough to use PGP, then that data can never be used against them. Since you can be compelled to turn over a physical key via due proces…

On the other hand, there's a decent case made that establishing this kind of precedent would basically mean that if criminals are smart enough to use PGP, then that data can never be used against them.

So now smart criminals will move to Truecrypt hidden volumes and claim there isn't any hidden volume. So now what do you do? Jail someone who might be telling the truth, or let him go?

This doesn't solve anything. Encryption is way past it.

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