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Continuous growth is cancer

christianheilmann.com

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Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#61

Post by [deleted] »

gruez wrote: post #21
mxkopy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most if not all of our social problems can be solved with enough education. If you're the type of person to read census data for fun you'll probably not want to have kids. If you're exposed to the liberal arts continuously throughout your life, you're less likely to take metrics at face value. The system is just like any other: you put garbage in it, and you'll get garbage out of it.

>Most if not all of our social problems can be solved with enough education. So by "controlled growth", you actually mean "better education"? What type of education you think is needed? Do you think that making sure everyone has a bachelors is magically going to make growth "controlled" enough for your tastes?

[deleted]

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#62

Post by ChatGTP »

411111111111111 wrote: post #60
waffletower wrote: post #50

“I´d like to share a revelation that I´ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that you’re not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way can survive is t…

While it's a funny quote it couldn't be further from the truth. All mammals will do this, modern society is just significantly more successful at it.

To say it another way, humans don't have any natural predators to keep populations in check?

We do however seem to be developing a common conscience that seems to be headed in the right direction with regards to sustainability.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#63

Post by glass3 »

jmarbach wrote: post #22

The author is correct. Growth is typically just a debt-fueled spending binge. The cancer is actually the fiat, soft money that’s improperly aligning incentives in the economy.

It's the other way round. Dept is discounted potential future growth.

Potential growth and the ability to pay back dept is the foundation for receiving money.

What the author ignores is that it is a race. There are many opportunities but not all will be successful. Failed investments transfer the money from those who made wrong predictions to those who made successful ones. This creates sustained progress because those who are good at predicting the future have the most influence.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#64

Post by tjpnz »

waffletower wrote: post #50

“I´d like to share a revelation that I´ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that you’re not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way can survive is t…

Lana Wachowski did us dirty not bringing back Hugo Weaving for Matrix 4.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#65

Post by Obscurity4340 »

tjpnz wrote: post #64
waffletower wrote: post #50

“I´d like to share a revelation that I´ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that you’re not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way can survive is t…

Lana Wachowski did us dirty not bringing back Hugo Weaving for Matrix 4.

There's a Matrix 4v

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#66

Post by xupybd »

arcticbull wrote: post #23
roenxi wrote: post #7

I'd challenge the idea that this is unsustainable because of the specific system. Entropy and resource limits mean whatever we do is unsustainable under any system as far as we tell, both theoretically and in practical timespans. Nobody seems to have an argument for where the physical resources will come from, or how we deal with exponential population growth without just having regular famines (even worse than losin…

We don't have continuous exponential population growth. That's not to say that we won't exceed the limits of the biosphere at some point to meet our needs, but as a society becomes more developed the birth rate falls off massively. Just 60 years ago the US and Canada had a fertility rate of 4, meaning 4 children born to the average woman. In the US, it's now 1.64 and Canada is just 1.4 - well below the replacement ra…

I wouldn't leave out birth control technology either. That has had a massive impact on population growth.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#67

Post by trilbyglens »

gruez wrote: post #13
flangola7 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the ecosystem is not benefited by humans being cancer. Humans are not benefited by obliterating biodiversity, although they may not have felt many of its effects yet. Growth is not inherently good, uncontrolled growth is certainly not.

>Growth is not inherently good, uncontrolled growth is certainly not. That's a nice soundbite, but what does that translate into in terms of actual policy? Do we cap growth at 2% or whatever and call it a day?

What it looks like is putting far more regulation in place surrounding hiring and employee protections. Layoffs have not hit Europe to the same extent largely because it's slower and more cumbersome to hire and fire, so employers are naturally more cautious. In the US you can hire and fire at will, so why be cautious?

If companies were required to give 2 months notice like they are in many EU countries you bet your ass they'd be more cautious.

Like often enough, the problem is not capitalism per se, but rather the completely unregulated American variant of capitalism.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#68

Post by xupybd »

kilgnad wrote: post #35
roenxi wrote: post #7

I'd challenge the idea that this is unsustainable because of the specific system. Entropy and resource limits mean whatever we do is unsustainable under any system as far as we tell, both theoretically and in practical timespans. Nobody seems to have an argument for where the physical resources will come from, or how we deal with exponential population growth without just having regular famines (even worse than losin…

>Life looks a lot like cancer. Cancer looks a lot like life. "Being cancer" isn't a bad thing, cancer is only bad when it is a disease in humans. Otherwise it is the way of the world. We are surrounded by patterns that propagate themselves quickly. You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand. First off most energy on earth com…

>You lack holistic understanding of the science behind life and what cancer is. I will explain. And once I'm done, you should understand

I think you're being unfair in your response. "Life looks a lot like cancer" can be true and life and cancer can be totally different. They only need to look like each other.

I'd also be careful to ever invoke the term "the science".

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#69

Post by xupybd »

gruez wrote: post #15
rTX5CMRXIfFG wrote: post #3

I find it hard not to fully agree with this article. Even without questioning the capitalist obsession for infinite growth (despite finite resources and markets), we should not have had the practice of hiring more than is essential to run the business. Who thought it was a good idea to make a success metric out of headcount? To comment on the writing: that title is genius.

>Even without questioning the capitalist obsession for infinite growth (despite finite resources and markets), Seeing how communist regimes aren't exactly practicing degrowth, I think it's more accurate to say it's a human obsession. >we should not have had the practice of hiring more than is essential to run the business. Who thought it was a good idea to make a success metric out of headcount? Ostensibly companies…

I think North Korea is doing a good job of limiting growth. Not as a determined goal of their communism but as a result of their corruption, totalitarian control and incompetence. Still credit where credit is due. They are not growing as fast as their capitalist brothers to the south.

Re: Continuous growth is cancer

#70

Post by svnt »

wunderland wrote: post #30

It seems like nobody in the US educated in the last 50 years has read Marx or even has a cursory understanding of his ideas. You’ve seen tech bros reinvent public transportation 5 different ways. Now watch as they slowly gain the insights described by last century’s most influential philosopher after living through his observations firsthand.

It doesn’t seem like that, it is like that. We consume second-hand Ayn Rand instead.
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