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Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

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Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#131

Post by twodave »

dahart wrote: post #107
twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

> this is less about ethics and more about one person’s potential regret over a business transaction. Why do you believe this, and do you have any evidence to support this claim? Are you not aware of the history of this image? “Retiring Lena as an image used in coding goes beyond copyright, consent or ethics. It is a required step to help women feel more welcome in tech.” https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-…

Evidence? Why would I need any? There is no unethical origin of that photo, as the article claims there is. The burden isn't on me to prove non-existence, that's silly.

But fair enough, I've clearly missed a bit of context. I think my overall point still stands, though. Though I personally think calling that cropped photo "pornographic" is a stretch, it's not an image I would have selected or personally find appropriate. Truthfully, I didn't even realize it was from Playboy until I clicked a link in the article. It's still not a question of ethical origins vs not.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#132

Post by jacobriis »

Is the problem that the photo is cropped from a woman who is nude or that the woman is beautiful or that a photo of a woman would be used at all?

I watched the documentary produced by the campaign Losing Lena (https://www.facebook.com/codelikeagirlau/videos/985614161797...) here are the complaints:

1) Female student says high school students made jokes about the photo and made her feel that women were made to be a joke

2) Female researcher says when the photo goes up on a screen "everyone laughs.... well not everyone"

3) Female math professor says the photo symbolizes the role women played in technology: "beautiful young woman in the photograph not the one doing the coding"

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#133

Post by googlryas »

josephcsible wrote: post #52
matthews2 wrote: post #3

Background: the original Lena picture comes from the Playboy Magazine, and the model doesn't want people to use it. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-...

Contrast that case with this one: https://www.boredpanda.com/unflattering-donald-trump-chin-ph... Why is it that in the former, everyone says you're a horrible person who deserves to be cancelled if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture, but in the latter, everyone says it's a great thing if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture?

I love how mostly liberal(and good) viewpoints about the badness of body shaming go out the window when it comes to their enemies. Whether it was about his weight, or penis or hand size. Heck, there was even a popular statue made of a nude trump with a micropenis which people were lining up to have their picture taken with.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#135

Post by globular-toast »

I find it funny how people aren't even sure what is wrong with the original image. There seem to be at least three reasons:

(1) The image itself is somehow unethically sourced, as seems to be implied here,

(2) The subject in the image doesn't wish for it to be used in such a way,

(3) The image excludes women from computer science.

I don't see any evidence for any of them. It seems to me this image just makes some people uncomfortable but they are not sure why so they just make up pseudo-logical reasons for it. It's OK to say that something just doesn't feel right. I wish people would just do that. Things don't always have to be logical. If we all agree we don't like it then we shouldn't do it.

I do wonder why people feel bad about this all of a sudden, though.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#136

Post by twodave »

chasing wrote: post #120
twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

> Just because you regret doing a deal doesn't mean others are unethical for benefiting from it. Everything else aside, this is simply inaccurate. Contractual deals can totally be unethical for all sorts of reasons. When there’s an extreme power imbalance, for example. As one might see between a very young woman and a large and powerful company.

I didn't say it _can't be_ unethical. I just said it isn't necessarily. Ethics is a fairly narrow definition, and I'm not sure you can apply it as broadly as, "Anytime one party has leverage over another, there's an ethics violation." I'd be willing to consider it, but in this case I don't see where anybody's wishes were explicitly violated or any contract was executed in bad faith...

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#137

Post by dahart »

twodave wrote: post #106
gbanfalvi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you're using your own body in a business transaction (of _any kind_) you should really think through the possible consequences. Yeah, when she was modelling for playboy she should've thought "what if a nerd somewhere takes this photo of me and unknowingly turns it into a commonplace testing asset in an industry niche in 50 years that doesn't even exist in my current time?" More seriously, the original copyrigh…

That class of thinking is exactly what she should have considered, though I'd have phrased it more generally: "These photos will not be under my control, therefore they could show up anywhere at anytime in the future, and there's potentially nothing I can do about it."

Why are you doubling down on your assumption that this is about Lena without you knowing what actually happened? What makes you assume she didn’t know full well the image was not under her control? What makes you assume control over the image is even a relevant issue here?

The issue and the debate surrounding this image has almost nothing to do with how Lena feels about the image, and was neither initiated nor pursued by her. She happens to support the movement now, which does strengthen it slightly, but that’s a minor footnote, and not the driving force here.

Furthermore, the movement is not a legal action. Arguing that someone can’t do something legally about it is irrelevant. It’s always legal to ask. It is time the image be retired, so what’s wrong with saying so?

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#138

Post by twodave »

chasing wrote: post #111
twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

People who sell photos of their bodies should be allowed to make ethical arguments or have opinions outside the narrow confines of their contracts. Even if those pictures are naked pictures.

They can. It still doesn't make the use or origin of those photos unethical.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#139

Post by bee_rider »

smcl wrote: post #127
bee_rider wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually is not great that people decided to go after Trump’s various sensitive physical traits. He’s an awful person and there are many far more substantial things to criticize him on. Making fun of his weight, even though it feels good to say negative things about a bad person, reinforces the idea that this is somehow a valid criticism. I can see why people do it. He’s the worst, it feels good to say negative th…

This is a good point, it may be cathartic, it may be deserved but it isn't really helpful.

Plus it brings us into the world of the crass and stupid, where Trump has the home team advantage.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#140

Post by dahart »

twodave wrote: post #131
dahart wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is less about ethics and more about one person’s potential regret over a business transaction. Why do you believe this, and do you have any evidence to support this claim? Are you not aware of the history of this image? “Retiring Lena as an image used in coding goes beyond copyright, consent or ethics. It is a required step to help women feel more welcome in tech.” https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-…

Evidence? Why would I need any? There is no unethical origin of that photo, as the article claims there is. The burden isn't on me to prove non-existence, that's silly. But fair enough, I've clearly missed a bit of context. I think my overall point still stands, though. Though I personally think calling that cropped photo "pornographic" is a stretch, it's not an image I would have selected or personally find appropri…

You assumed and claimed falsely that Lena regrets the “business transaction” with the photo. I asked for evidence of that. You claimed this wasn’t about ethics and framed it as only about Lena. I asked for evidence of that. You could maybe use some evidence on account of my belief that your claims above are not true.
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