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Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

mortenhannemose.github.io

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Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#101

Post by bee_rider »

josephcsible wrote: post #52
matthews2 wrote: post #3

Background: the original Lena picture comes from the Playboy Magazine, and the model doesn't want people to use it. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-...

Contrast that case with this one: https://www.boredpanda.com/unflattering-donald-trump-chin-ph... Why is it that in the former, everyone says you're a horrible person who deserves to be cancelled if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture, but in the latter, everyone says it's a great thing if you ignore the subject's wishes to not use the picture?

It actually is not great that people decided to go after Trump’s various sensitive physical traits. He’s an awful person and there are many far more substantial things to criticize him on. Making fun of his weight, even though it feels good to say negative things about a bad person, reinforces the idea that this is somehow a valid criticism.

I can see why people do it. He’s the worst, it feels good to say negative things about him. And he also has a tendency to go for shallow physical descriptions of people as criticism. So it has the feeling of “turnabout is fair play.” But it is a failure to restrain lesser instincts.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#102

Post by CharlesW »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #53
dsr_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more personal an artifact is, the more I think the subject's wishes should be taken into account. https://qntm.org/mmacevedo is a much more in-depth examination...

The model in question posed for nude pictures in Playboy... The whole 'controversy' is pure spin in an age when everything has to be controversial.

> The model in question posed for nude pictures in Playboy...

This is the problem. You're implying it's okay because she asked for it, when the unlicensed reproduction of Disney IP would be treated very differently.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#103

Post by dspillett »

froggertoaster wrote: post #35

Funny concept, but the premise that the origin of the image is unethically sourced is suspect in and of itself. Can we stop with these signal-y type posts?

Ignoring the question of the ethics of the original place the image was published, which is a long and many sided discussion that no one is going to “win” any time soon, there is a second issue: the ethics of using an unlicensed image. This may also be a grey area (some arguing “information wants to be free” overrides such matters), but legally the “ethics” are far more black and white.

Though I think these comments are getting far too bogged down on the ethics and legality of using the Lena image, and ignoring the fact that Morten's new image & related post is (at least mainly) intended as a bit of fun, poking at just these sorts of discussions.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#104

Post by jakear »

throw009 wrote: post #42
sergiotapia wrote: post #27

"However, 46 years on, Lena is still being used as a test image. According to Creatable and Code Like Girl, this is symbolic of how women were left out and pushed out of the industry." No comment necessary.

Plenty of comment necessary. Models give up the rights to their image to be paid for the shoot. Why is it that a century of legal and moral president needs to be thrown out because someone says they don't like it? The only person with a leg to stand on here is the photographers whose copyright is being infringed and even that is debatable.

I think the point is it's hypocritical to say "this photo of a woman has been in use for 40 years, it's an example or how women are left out of the industry". It makes some unsubstantiated assumptions, chiefly: "men are more likely to want to look at a woman's photo than a woman is".

Take a look at any popular female "influencer" Instagram account's follower list and let me know if thats backed up by the facts (hint: it isn't. Not by a long shot.)

(Some) women want to look at (some) women. (Some) men want to look at (some) women. (Some) women want to look at (some) men. (Some) men want to look at (some) men.

The answer is clearly to have both men and women in the sample data. Not exclude people based on their gender.

If there was a direct quote from the model themself calling for the end of the use of the photo that'd be one thing, but based on what I've seen here it doesn't exist.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#105

Post by HPsquared »

mLuby wrote: post #78
twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

May I suggest more empathy for your fellow humans? We aren't good at weighing long-term consequences, especially when we're young (as in the model's case) or in financial need (IDK if that was a factor here; it wouldn't surprise me). Contracts between parties of such unequal bargaining power can't be ethically valid IMO, whatever legally validity they may claim. Likewise, 20y+ contracts involving individuals aren't w…

Anyone getting married, buying a house or having children enters into a long contract, often at a relatively young age. Are those unwise? (It's arguably the case today, I suppose)

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#106

Post by twodave »

gbanfalvi wrote: post #80
twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

> When you're using your own body in a business transaction (of _any kind_) you should really think through the possible consequences. Yeah, when she was modelling for playboy she should've thought "what if a nerd somewhere takes this photo of me and unknowingly turns it into a commonplace testing asset in an industry niche in 50 years that doesn't even exist in my current time?" More seriously, the original copyrigh…

That class of thinking is exactly what she should have considered, though I'd have phrased it more generally: "These photos will not be under my control, therefore they could show up anywhere at anytime in the future, and there's potentially nothing I can do about it."

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#107

Post by dahart »

twodave wrote: post #49

I was expecting to read some story about criminal exploitation, but this sounds like it's just... completely above-board? As a few other commenters stated, the model hasn't explicitly stated whether she supports the use of the photo or not. Even if she did explicitly come out and say she doesn't like people using it, she doesn't own the rights to it. I'm fine with (and happy for) people going above and beyond to resp…

> this is less about ethics and more about one person’s potential regret over a business transaction.

Why do you believe this, and do you have any evidence to support this claim? Are you not aware of the history of this image?

“Retiring Lena as an image used in coding goes beyond copyright, consent or ethics. It is a required step to help women feel more welcome in tech.” https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-...

I don’t believe that Lena herself has expressed regret over the business transaction, nor was she even bothered much by the use of the image in tech. I believe I read that Playboy considered action on copyright grounds, but decided not to pursue them. You can verify these things via many sources, the link above contains several, as well as the Wikipedia article on this image. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Criticism

This is neither about Lena’s choices nor is it about protecting her dignity. It’s about our choices and protecting our dignity.

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#108

Post by throwaway920333 »

It used to make no sense to me how people would put so much effort into things like this that don’t matter. Yes, the photo is originally from Playboy, but most people don’t even know that because it’s cropped. It’s just a picture of a woman’s face.

This and things like renaming master to main I now see as examples of the foot-in-the-door strategy[1]. Get people and teams to agree to a small request like changing their test image, and then they will be more likely to go along with big changes later, because they have publicly expressed support for diversity goals and they have a psychological need to remain consistent in their actions (avoid cognitive dissonance)

[1] https://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings/...

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#109

Post by estebank »

thepasswordis wrote: post #87

Can we please just have some things with some soul? This is a cute photo, the model in the photo has said she thinks is cool and kindof funny that it has been used for image research, the story is kindof cute and funny, and it's just...all around wholesome. The people who want to get rid of this stuff are sad. The world does not need to be a soulless, beige, featureless, boring slurry of boring featureless HR spoken…

This new picture is in conversation with the older one, acknowledging its legacy while also making a statement. Is there anything about the new picture that is souless, beige, featureless or boring?

Re: Ethically Sourced Lena Picture

#110

Post by iameli »

rom-antics wrote: post #64
matthews2 wrote: post #3

Background: the original Lena picture comes from the Playboy Magazine, and the model doesn't want people to use it. https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-...

That article doesn't support the headline. The closest it gets is saying nobody asked her beforehand, but she doesn't say after the fact that she wants people to stop. Meanwhile, from the people who actually bothered to talk to her[1]: > In her view, the photograph is an immense accomplishment that just happened to take on a life of its own. “I’m really proud of that picture,” she said. This whole situation reminds m…

Did you watch the video? She said that she would like to retire from having her picture used in this way.
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