Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

insideevs.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 200 posts

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#101

Post by brookst »

axus wrote: post #84
jasongill wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aluminum is perfectly fine as a conductor, and perfectly safe. In the USA, we've used aluminum for most of our power transmission and distribution since the beginning of "the grid". Everything from the power plant to the meter at your home is connected with aluminum. Where aluminum causes fires is due to the fact that it expands and contracts more than copper does, and it can oxidize and corrode when not properly car…

Perhaps the decrease in reliability was pitched internally as a way to sell more Teslas in the future?

Yes, no class action suit destroying the company could ever come from that little conspiracy.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#102

Post by pclmulqdq »

to11mtm wrote: post #13
calo_star wrote: post #5

You could also just use 3-phase AC induction motor.

Tesla actually used 3-phase motors in the past. Their newer motor (not the one in the article) is not a 3-phase induction, but is ~2% more efficient which is important when considering overall vehicle cost/range.

So it's cheaper.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#103

Post by clouddrover »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

> If successful ... It’s a big deal!

BMW already has a motor that doesn't use rare earths:

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/bmws-fifth-gen...

https://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-ix-m60-brushed-electric-...

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#104

Post by brookst »

hulitu wrote: post #59
schiffern wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they - developed low-cobalt and low-nickel cathodes, to reduce scarce battery metals - increased overall vehicle efficiency to allow iron cathodes which are earth-abundant - consolidated electronic modules to reduce microchips and wiring - are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low…

> Are any other manufacturers pushing as hard here? Why would they. Most of those things are not sustainable. You don't want alluminium wires in your car.

> You don't want alluminium wires in your car

Why not? I^2*r says that running 75% less current will generate 94% less heat.

Existing copper wires would be a disaster if cars ran on a 3V system. Aluminum at 48V will be fine, as long as it’s sized appropriately the same way copper is today.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#105

Post by raisedbyninjas »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #80
cunidev wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, most Tesla engineering hires are thankfully smarter than their management - not that they don't have some great competition out there though (Merc, Porsche, etc.)

I think a lot of this stuff boils down to Elon Musk being absolutely ruthlessly uncompromising in his hiring and technology vision and management. His management style may not be agreeable to people and he gets criticized for that a lot obviously. But the technical vision that he drives at Tesla, SpaceX, and his other companies are undeniable what makes these companies so valuable. And it's exactly where his competit…

I notice there is a company missing from this list where Musk has been stepping on rakes left, right & center.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#107

Post by nine_k »

axus wrote: post #84
jasongill wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aluminum is perfectly fine as a conductor, and perfectly safe. In the USA, we've used aluminum for most of our power transmission and distribution since the beginning of "the grid". Everything from the power plant to the meter at your home is connected with aluminum. Where aluminum causes fires is due to the fact that it expands and contracts more than copper does, and it can oxidize and corrode when not properly car…

Perhaps the decrease in reliability was pitched internally as a way to sell more Teslas in the future?

Unlikely: buying a replacement car because your previous one burst into flames usually involves staying away from the previous brand.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#108

Post by ajross »

jeffbee wrote: post #106

At this point "Tesla says it will do..." is virtually without meaning. Historically this means either they will never do it, or they are catching up to the industry, or it's something their supplier already does for everyone.

Is it? Or is that just hyperbole? I mean, they announced every product they do deliver too, and they're selling a lot of objectively very successful products.

I just don't understand the hate around this company. It's not enough to criticize, people need to deploy stuff like "virtually without meaning", or "will never do it". I mean, can't they just be like any other company that spins a bit with their product announcements?

In this specific case, though, the criticism is just silly. Tesla already deploys induction motors on half the drive train that meet this requirement. The question is whether they can get rid of the (higher power/weight) permanent magnet motors in the back.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#109

Post by nine_k »

londons_explore wrote: post #62
beambot wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best example I know of for new magnet chemistry without rare earths is Niron Magnetics: https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magne... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34359383

> Our product roadmap climbs the ladder of performance allowing us to replace NdFeB magnets initially on the basis of price performance and ultimately on the basis of absolute performance So it sounds like they haven't yet figured out how to make a magnet as strong as a regular NeFeB magnet, but it is theoretically possible to do so. Magnet strength is one of the key inputs for motor torque per unit mass, and it seem…

If availability of, say, neodymium becomes limited, no amount of price increase would be able to bring a sufficient quantity. It's a bad situation to.find your factory in.

See the recent chip crisis.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#110

Post by chrisjc »

LatteLazy wrote: post #75
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

As far as I am aware, there is nothing rare about "rare earth metals". The only reason the west relies on places like China and Russia is because refining them is very very polluting, producing a lot of toxic by products. So we either do that locally and pay 100x more to fund the clean up after. Or we import from China and Russia where they apparently don't mind everyone getting poisoned. So this isn't really anythin…

The last time I went down this rabbit hole, I discovered one of the other reasons that China is effectively the refinement bottleneck is because of all the related patents that they've picked up over the years.
Post reply on HN