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EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

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Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#381

Post by dragonwriter »

jsmith99 wrote: post #373
hellojesus wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

Even the biggest fan of free markets agrees government need to prevent market failures, such as natural monopolies caused by network effects.

> Even the biggest fan of free markets agrees government need to prevent market failures, such as natural monopolies caused by network effects.

No, the biggest fans of “free markets” do not think that, in fact, they mock both the general idea of “market failure” and the specific places where people outside their faith identify such failures:

https://mises.org/library/market-failure

https://mises.org/library/market-failure-myth

https://mises.org/library/myth-market-failure

https://mises.org/wire/healthcare-and-market-failure

https://mises.org/library/response-market-failure-drones

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#382

Post by [deleted] »

kcartlidge wrote: post #304
baby wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones that created cookie popups everywhere. It’s horrible. It’s the worst. Everyone can see how horrible it is. Nobody understands why this is still a thing.

The regulations never mandated cookie popups. Companies who decided to continue their invasive policies chose to implement those popups to provide legal cover. Non-invasive companies don't need to do that. The issue is with the companies, not the regulation.

[deleted]

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#383

Post by ClumsyPilot »

mattrighetti wrote: post #222
dijit wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [..] you don't get to decide what "social good" is Well, technically I have a say, I elect my leaders and can write to them with my opinion. Often it is the case that salesmen and charletons get into those positions but the basic premise of those positions is that they're intended to act in the social good. What you propose is that somehow tech companies will act in the social good by themselves, which I find parti…

> The only antidote to this is regulations. Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer that regulations disproportionately hurt smaller businesses in the long run because those giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments and they usually have thousands of smart lawyers ready to find holes and exploit/get around regulations made, usually, by people that does not understand the subject enough…

> Well, I respectfully disagree, I'm a firm believer

You have proposed no mehcanism to keep monopolies in check. You are a firm beliver in what?

> giants that have the monopoly move way faster than governments

So governments should be even more agressive and disproportionate to be effevtive? That is the inevitable conclusion of your argument.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#384

Post by _boffin_ »

willyt wrote: post #86

If everyone's messaging has to be compatible with everyone else's then maybe we will finally only need one messaging app on our phones again instead of 5. Sounds great. I just want to be able to send messages without thinking about which app I need to go into to communicate with a particular person; that really breaks my flow when I'm trying to get something done. I don't give a shit about any features apart from pic…

I’m not needing 5. I have a phone number and people can text me via that.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#385

Post by dcow »

mattrighetti wrote: post #165

This sounds nice, but when you really think about the consequences it really is not. Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer? What if one day Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp want to implement something "different" that could make messaging better but this policy is making things harder to implement because it would be impossible to make it interoperate with other messaging apps? I don't get w…

> I don't get why you would regulate such a thing.

Because there's absolutely no downside to telling Apple it can't artificially make its iMessage platform restricted to Apple devices. We literally have seen leaked emails where Apple deliberately does this as an anti-consumer platform lock in play. The slippery slope hypothetical you provide is not the reality. Nobody is asking governments to regulate adding cool new features to the and force everyone to comply and implement them. What regulators are saying is that Apple can't deliberately make Sneetches out of us and needs to allow interoperability on their human-critical messaging platform. In the US the DMCA actually makes it explicitly legal to reverse engineer a protocol for the purpose of interoperability. This idea basically extends that to "and you can't punish users for building applications that interoperating with it" but of course is framed as "just fucking stop disallowing it greedy asshats".

If I could install a 3rd party SMS app on iPhone (like how Signal used to work on Android) I'd be more skeptical about needing this regulation.

If Apple wasn't doing this artificially and iMessage actually had features that were innovative, and that other people couldn't reasonably be expected to implement in a way that wouldn't be a detriment to the protocol, I'd be more skeptical. (TBH they've probably spent more resources on preventing interoperability than if they didn't care and let it be open...)

> Isn't this going to kill features that only some apps have or offer?

No, degrade gracefully. If the feature is an improvement for everyone and should be required, we know how to have working groups update a spec and have implementers follow (even when one leads the pack and drives the spec changes in the first place as is often the case these days). If that doesn't work build a new protocol and win people over with your obviously better CoolNewFeature.

It's like you don't believe it's possible with the countless man centuries of resources these companies have to have software both interoperate and degrade gracefully when one client doesn't support all protocol features. I don't buy it; I believe we can.

You're spreading FUD.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#386

Post by ClumsyPilot »

hellojesus wrote: post #352
JoeNr76 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of iMessage, Apple has a competitive advantage that stifles competition, not enhances it. Setting a baseline for interoperability is not the same as requiring them all to be the same.

People vote with their dollars. If people don't like the dumb messaging, they can move to a different platform. With infinite amounts of other free apps, why are regulations necessary? Let people decide for themselves.

So people who have no dollars get no vote and deserve nothing?

Should we take the same approach with clean air and see what happens?

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#387

Post by surge »

wildpeaks wrote: post #260
weberer wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies that are maliciously compliant are not the norm. How do you explain all these damn GDPR pop ups on every site that make it as difficult as possible to disagree?

On that note, I think the GDPR banner problem won't be solved until the UI is shown at the browser level, just like tracking permission dialogs on mobile: having the same UI for all sites would prevent tricking users into over-complicated form because at least it would be the same form everytime. Right now, too many end users get fatigue fooled into blaming the EU rather than the companies tracking them, whereas on m…

That's what I was thinking, just have it as a presetting in my browser to reject all but necessary functional cookies as a header setting in requests and be done.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#388

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG »

eatsyourtacos wrote: post #358
stevehawk wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's is a near infinite number of competitors to iMessage. There's Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Viber, Kik, Skype, Whatever Google Makes that they'll kill in six months, WeChat, Snapchat, Lime, Telegram... and I'm sure a bunch of others I've never heard of but other people live and die by. Not mention SMS and MMS. As a result, I don't understand why people are so mad at iMessage that they need it crippled…

I know this thread is from the EU- but I'm giving the US perspective here just FYI. >There's is a near infinite number of competitors to iMessage 50% of phones in the US are apple phones. Nearly everyone is exclusively using iMessage (and doesn't even realize that it's proprietary while trying to mix in SMS). Hardly anyone uses anything like whatsapp here. Good luck getting any somewhat older person to use multiple m…

How is your entire comment not a mere assumption that the issue is within iMessage itself and not other logically possible factors, such as your carrier, your reception, or your mother using her phone incorrectly? Also, allowing alternative messaging apps to be installed in your OS is exactly the opposite of “flagrant abuse”.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#389

Post by OrvalWintermute »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #368
hellojesus wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of market economies is to let people vote with their resources. The alternative of having people vote for a representative body that regulates how they transact is far worse. Best case you get a almost as good outcome. Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good".

> Worst case is 49.9% of people suffer horribly under state enforced "social good". As an iPhone, iPad, and iMessage user, please explain how I will "suffer horribly" from being able to interact with the iMessage service from non-Apple devices.

Apple seems to keep spam on iMessage fairly well controlled.

If anyone can do iMessage on any device, it is logical that these protections may weaken over time.

Re: EU will require Apple to open up iMessage (2022)

#390

Post by smoldesu »

hellojesus wrote: post #352
JoeNr76 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of iMessage, Apple has a competitive advantage that stifles competition, not enhances it. Setting a baseline for interoperability is not the same as requiring them all to be the same.

People vote with their dollars. If people don't like the dumb messaging, they can move to a different platform. With infinite amounts of other free apps, why are regulations necessary? Let people decide for themselves.

The same could be said for Disneyland, but it's not an excuse to let Disney engage in lawless conduct as long as it's within the park.
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