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The 15% Tax Rate

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Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#61
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting but the problem that I see with this argument is that you are ignoring transfer pricing agreements. Basically companies like Twitter (and google, facebook, etc.) use a bunch of complex tax structures in different countries to legally avoid paying corporate income tax. Google paid something like a 2.6% effective tax rate. Others like GE paid a negative percentage. So the issue here is that in the c…

...Twitter (and google, facebook, etc.) use a bunch of complex tax structures in different countries to legally avoid paying corporate income tax. Yes, many companies use complex tax structures to avoid paying US corporate income taxes on non-US profits. So what? They don't consume any US government services either, and Fred Wilson paid appropriate taxes to whatever nation Twitter Europe lives in. Similarly, my emplo…

>They don't consume any US government services either

These sorts of arguments always bother me because they over simplify the complexities of how one benefits from a public good or service. One example would be that Google doesn't have to worry about their engineers getting into a car crash on the way to work because the governments (federal and state) collectively spend billions of dollars ensuring that our roadways are safe for vehicles.

Another example would be that google doesn't have to spend money hiring private militaries or police forces to enforce their contracts because we have a judicial system that is paid for by the tax payers. This particular example is where your "consumption" argument falls down rather directly. Although it's true that they hire their own counsel, they are not the ones paying the salaries of all the various court officials. They "consume" these resources but in many peoples minds, myself included, do not pay their fair share.

>Similarly, my employees (all located here in India) don't pay any US income taxes. Is there some reason they should?

Of course not. The company that you set up and domiciled in America pays income taxes on the profit that you generate. Profit is usually defined as revenue minus expenses. Taxes paid in other countries are considered expenses and as such are accounted for.

>The loss carryforward is a necessary hack to the system to prevent taxation from penalizing businesses with volatile income streams.

Although we can both agree that GE's tax situation is very complex the problems that I and others have is that they directly lobby the government to get these tax incentives. The example I am thinking of is their lobbying arm advocating for an increased depreciation schedule on some of their capital equipment. This isn't fair.

The summary of my problem with your argument is that you benefit from all the things that America provides (government services, easy access to higher education, educated working class, pro-business climate, etc) but don't think that you should have to pay for any of this because "you didn't consume it." Just by living in America and being able to take advantage of these things you have consumed these things and you should have to pay your fair share. Consumption doesn't necessarily mean somebody handing you a check or waiting in a welfare line.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#62

Most economists feel it's correct to tax consumption, not income. Taxing income has the effect of compound-taxing investment, which is A Bad Thing. This is why the capital gains tax rate is 15%, since capital gains usually come from money put down that was already taxed. So we get unfair situations, where a business founder is taxed once on his initial investment, again on his company's income tax, and finally on cap…

"You know how a traditional IRA is tax deductible when you invest, and taxed when you withdraw? Just open that up. Money isn't taxed until it's withdrawn, presumably to be spent."

Huh?

You just wrote that money is taxed when withdrawn, then suggested taxing money when it's withdrawn.

Roth IRAs allow you to deduct tax free, because you pay tax on the money before you invest it, generally a good deal for most people, as you don't know what tax policy will be in effect when you come to withdraw it later, but you do know today's tax policies.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#63
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can lower the tax on goods that lower income individuals are likely to spend on, while increasing tax on goods higher income individuals are likely to spend on, to make it more progressive.

Most of the rich don't go around buying stupidly expensive things. They don't get rich by spending. They get rich by saving. There are billionaires that live in modest homes and don't particularly act or spend like their rich, but they enjoy all of societies benefits that created an environment that enabled them to become rich. They should pay for it so that future billionaires and millionaires can be made.

Or they could just kill the estate ("death") tax, ensuring that those future billionaires are their descendants.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#64

Fred Wilson chooses non representative numbers to make his point: But there is a bigger issue here and that is whether it is good policy for someone of Mitt Romney's or my wealth to pay a lower tax rate than the average hard working american citizen. Mitt Romney and Fred Wilson are atypical cases. The bottom quintile pays 4.3% of income in tax, assuming they have any income. The middle quintile pays 14.2%, the nation…

But eliminate the corporate income tax while you are at it.

Or switch to an integrated tax system like Canada has, where you get dividend tax credits (approximately) equal to the taxes the corporation paid on the revenues which resulted in those dividends.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#65

Most economists feel it's correct to tax consumption, not income. Taxing income has the effect of compound-taxing investment, which is A Bad Thing. This is why the capital gains tax rate is 15%, since capital gains usually come from money put down that was already taxed. So we get unfair situations, where a business founder is taxed once on his initial investment, again on his company's income tax, and finally on cap…

"You know how a traditional IRA is tax deductible when you invest, and taxed when you withdraw? Just open that up. Money isn't taxed until it's withdrawn, presumably to be spent." Huh? You just wrote that money is taxed when withdrawn, then suggested taxing money when it's withdrawn. Roth IRAs allow you to deduct tax free, because you pay tax on the money before you invest it, generally a good deal for most people, a…

> Roth IRAs allow you to deduct tax free, because you pay tax on the money before you invest it, generally a good deal for most people, as you don't know what tax policy will be in effect when you come to withdraw it later, but you do know today's tax policies.

Is there really anything preventing them from changing the way Roth IRAs work, though?

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#66

Most economists feel it's correct to tax consumption, not income. Taxing income has the effect of compound-taxing investment, which is A Bad Thing. This is why the capital gains tax rate is 15%, since capital gains usually come from money put down that was already taxed. So we get unfair situations, where a business founder is taxed once on his initial investment, again on his company's income tax, and finally on cap…

"You know how a traditional IRA is tax deductible when you invest, and taxed when you withdraw? Just open that up. Money isn't taxed until it's withdrawn, presumably to be spent." Huh? You just wrote that money is taxed when withdrawn, then suggested taxing money when it's withdrawn. Roth IRAs allow you to deduct tax free, because you pay tax on the money before you invest it, generally a good deal for most people, a…

Roth IRAs and 'traditional' IRAs work differently. Roth IRAs are neither taxed or tax-deductible. Traditional IRAs give you a deduction when you invest, deferring the taxes until you withdraw.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#67
post #11
post #3

> I've heard a number of arguments over the years against a flat tax. One is that a flat tax is regressive meaning that it penalizes lower income earners by taxing them at the same rate as higher earners. But I think we are all coming to realize that the current system may be even more regressive since most wealthy people find ways to pay lower tax rates. Let me preface this by saying, I don't necessarily disagree wi…

I can attempt that one. "Regressive" is bad only in the sense where it's disproportionately affecting the quality of life of lower-income people. So if I have a flat tax that only affects incomes over a certain income level, and that income level is set high enough so that a reasonable person's food, shelter, and clothing needs are met, it's a lot harder to argue that the tax is unfairly regressive, especially when y…

My personal problem with regressive policies is not that it effects peoples quality of life, rather that it affects the lives of their children. People that did not have a choice about which family they are born into.

Consider my own personal story. I come from an upper-middle class family. During high school I wasn't particularly motivated to excel academically and as a consequence didn't get particularly good grades in courses that I should have if I had invested the appropriate time and effort into studying. My parents response to this situation was to hire a tutor and force me to sit down with said tutor and study several hours a week. As a consequence I ended up getting better grades than I should have simply because my parents had the disposable income to spend on tutors. People from disadvantaged backgrounds do not get this same benefit. As a consequence I go on to university and end up getting a higher position on the totem pole because of my parents wealth. The kid who comes from a disadvantaged background and is in the same academic position as me does not get that kind of second chance.

>The next closest "fair" thing to me is a retail sales tax, provided that everyone is provided a stipend to cover the tax paid on basic living expenses.

Consumption taxes are regressive because they penalize the spenders. Bill Gates doesn't spend nearly as much money as he earns and as such pays a lower effective tax rate than someone who makes $30,000 a year and spends it all to support their family.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#68
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice way to carve out the middle class. Why not just have a graduated tax system with a clean base? It's not the tax brackets that make it complicated, it's the byzantine process of calculating "taxable income."

Realistically, the two are identical. Each is a bracketed, progressive income taxation system. The only thing that distinguishes them is the number of tax brackets. What's often presented as a "flat tax" actually has two brackets. The first, which starts at $0, has a 0% tax. The second, which starts at $X, has a Y% tax.

There's also the "fair tax" approach. Everyone pays the same tax, but everyone also gets a check from the govt on the amount of tax they're expected to spend up to the poverty level.

The "fair tax" is pitched on the basis of a sales tax. I don't see a reason why this couldn't be off income tax as well.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You know how a traditional IRA is tax deductible when you invest, and taxed when you withdraw? Just open that up. Money isn't taxed until it's withdrawn, presumably to be spent." Huh? You just wrote that money is taxed when withdrawn, then suggested taxing money when it's withdrawn. Roth IRAs allow you to deduct tax free, because you pay tax on the money before you invest it, generally a good deal for most people, a…

> Roth IRAs allow you to deduct tax free, because you pay tax on the money before you invest it, generally a good deal for most people, as you don't know what tax policy will be in effect when you come to withdraw it later, but you do know today's tax policies. Is there really anything preventing them from changing the way Roth IRAs work, though?

Technically no. I suspect it's been around long enough that it may be 'untouchable' like mortgage interest deduction, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some change in the future which re-taxes x% over your initial base contributions.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#70

Fred Wilson chooses non representative numbers to make his point: But there is a bigger issue here and that is whether it is good policy for someone of Mitt Romney's or my wealth to pay a lower tax rate than the average hard working american citizen. Mitt Romney and Fred Wilson are atypical cases. The bottom quintile pays 4.3% of income in tax, assuming they have any income. The middle quintile pays 14.2%, the nation…

Your ignoring 1/2 of Social Security and Medicare taxes. And also not plotting the tax rate of the top 1% or 0.1% both of which are dramatically lower due to not paying Social Security on income over 120k or Medicare on investment income.

The bottom quintile pays over 20% if they have a job. Medicare alone is 15.3%.

Also, corporate income taxes only apply to US investments, which is rarely 100% of any sane persons investments. To top that off if you actually buy stock from a large company their tax rate is often below 5%.

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