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The 15% Tax Rate

avc.com

11–20 of 123 posts

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#11
post #3

> I've heard a number of arguments over the years against a flat tax. One is that a flat tax is regressive meaning that it penalizes lower income earners by taxing them at the same rate as higher earners. But I think we are all coming to realize that the current system may be even more regressive since most wealthy people find ways to pay lower tax rates. Let me preface this by saying, I don't necessarily disagree wi…

I can attempt that one. "Regressive" is bad only in the sense where it's disproportionately affecting the quality of life of lower-income people.

So if I have a flat tax that only affects incomes over a certain income level, and that income level is set high enough so that a reasonable person's food, shelter, and clothing needs are met, it's a lot harder to argue that the tax is unfairly regressive, especially when you consider the flat tax above a certain income level is actually the same progressive tax we have now but with a single rung on the ladder.

The flat tax proposals, being simple and loophole free, make it more difficult (and more financially burdensome) to game, whereas the current system seems to be designed to allow people to gain by paying accountants to find loopholes. The benefits of a simplified version of the current progressive tax we have seem self-evident.

The idea is to reduce or eliminate the incentive to cheat. Fairness really doesn't factor into it much, although it could be seen as a nice side benefit. End of argument.

Personally, I'd posit that the only truly fair tax is a fixed rate, like "everyone pays $2000 annually." Everyone is entitled to the same protection under the law, and therefore should owe the same amount. Laws which don't meet the criteria that they apply to all people equally should therefore be stricken.

The next closest "fair" thing to me is a retail sales tax, provided that everyone is provided a stipend to cover the tax paid on basic living expenses. That prevents the negative effects of the regressive nature of the tax.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#12
post #6

I would much rather see a completely consumption based tax system. The mortgage interest and charity reductions could easily be left in.

If you replaced all taxes with a simple sales tax, it'd be even more regressive, since a gallon of milk (for example) has a higher relative cost to someone who makes $20,000 than someone who makes $2,000,000.

Also, it could have an unintentionally bad effect on our (now very consumer-driven) economy. You don't want to discourage people from spending money.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#13
post #4

When a 10% corporate tax and 10% income taxes for individuals were introduced in Bulgaria, government ministries and agencies started increasing their indirect taxes to balance their budgets. Suddenly if you are running a business you'll have to pay weird registration fees and if you are fined the fine will be huge too. Also, If everyone paid 15% (in total) I doubt it would appear fair. Wealthier people may benefit m…

> Also, If everyone paid 15% (in total) I doubt it would appear fair. Wealthier people may benefit more from government policy, why should they pay the same amount?

They wouldn't pay the same amount. They would pay the same proportion of their income.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#14
In the furore about Mitt Romney paying 15% tax I have not seen one comment which makes this point in his favour: The tax return does not show all taxes that a person pays, and so it's an inaccurate way to compare tax rates between two people.

In particular: corporation taxes (effectively paid by shareholders) and sales taxes should be added to the mix when talking about tax rates.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#15
post #3

> I've heard a number of arguments over the years against a flat tax. One is that a flat tax is regressive meaning that it penalizes lower income earners by taxing them at the same rate as higher earners. But I think we are all coming to realize that the current system may be even more regressive since most wealthy people find ways to pay lower tax rates. Let me preface this by saying, I don't necessarily disagree wi…

Wouldn't a flat tax with a nice high threshold be as non-regressive as you could get? Say X% of everything you make over $30k? Poor people pay roughly zero. Rich people like us pay almost exactly X%. Sorted. Extra points if the government looks at everybody's W-2s & 1099s, decides how much it needs and calculates an X accordingly for that year. Then sends me a bill.

That's a nice way to carve out the middle class.

Why not just have a graduated tax system with a clean base? It's not the tax brackets that make it complicated, it's the byzantine process of calculating "taxable income."

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#17
How about replacing income tax with a consumption tax?

The current tax system encourages speculative investment for capital gain and discourages investment for passive income due to lower tax rates on capital gain. Just look at the dismal amount of dividends paid out by companies in the US compared to Australia, where many companies pay out over 50% of their profits in dividends.

A person who earns a $10m a year but only spends $20,000 pays close to the same tax as a person who earns $10m and spends all $10m.

Both contributed lots to society to earn that $10m, but since the first person only spends $20,000 he only claims back a tiny amount from society resources due to him for his contribution. The second person claims back everything, equal in value to his contribution, resulting in no net gain to society. [correction: less net gain, because earning $10m would likely have provided several times that in benefits to society]

Replacing income taxes with only consumption taxes will further increase incentive for production, while discouraging unnecessary consumption. You'd get more people like the first person than the second person, and society will reap more of the rewards of more productive individuals, who use up less resources.

It'll be like society giving out pieces of paper that is put in a building called a bank in return for real goods and services, that are carefully allocated because no one wants to waste anything.

An example of a consumption tax is the VAT.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#18
So when an investor pays 15% "income" tax, it's on money that his company already paid 28% tax on (for a total of 39.8% tax). But as it's capital gains, there's a capital investment - money which again had to be earned, taxed and subjected to a risky investment.

It seems to me that if the benchmark tax rate is 40% (AVC says his brothers pay 40-50% on their salaries), and the 15% rate is raised, it would be beneficial for the investors to simply take a salary and bonus instead?

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#19
post #14

In the furore about Mitt Romney paying 15% tax I have not seen one comment which makes this point in his favour: The tax return does not show all taxes that a person pays, and so it's an inaccurate way to compare tax rates between two people. In particular: corporation taxes (effectively paid by shareholders) and sales taxes should be added to the mix when talking about tax rates.

To his credit, I suspect he also makes large charitable donations to the Mormon church which reduce his taxable income.

Re: The 15% Tax Rate

#20
post #17

How about replacing income tax with a consumption tax? The current tax system encourages speculative investment for capital gain and discourages investment for passive income due to lower tax rates on capital gain. Just look at the dismal amount of dividends paid out by companies in the US compared to Australia, where many companies pay out over 50% of their profits in dividends. A person who earns a $10m a year but…

A person who earns a $10m a year but only spends $20,000 pays close to the same tax as a person who earns $10m and spends all $10m.

Only if you ignore sales tax and other taxes incurred when spending money (hotels, fuel).

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