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A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

nytimes.com

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Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#181

Post by philipwhiuk »

boppo1 wrote: post #102
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

This is the running equivalent of "how do people who use computers not bleed from their eyeballs"

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#182

Post by sasawpg »

iamacyborg wrote: post #176
sasawpg wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't upvote this enough. Carbs are king for endurance, though I tend to drink most of mine as I find it easier.

I find more liquid gels are nice and palatable during runs. SIS ones are nice in that respect

For gels, I do maple syrup, which usually comes with a pinch of salt. I will also add 50-100g+ carbs per 750mL bottle. I find it hard to chew solids when biking at anything higher than low Z2, it actually increases my heart rate a bit.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#183

Post by jcrites »

kryptiskt wrote: post #108
jcrites wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(An inference based on context. I don’t know anything about this activity.) Because they’re not actually running the race; they’re staff for the event paid to run part of it at a set pace. “Finishing”, especially in a top spot, would take the spotlight away from the actual winning participants. It would be inappropriate for non-competing event staff to take away the spotlight from the competitors. It would be equally…

Last time I saw a rabbit win at a track and field event the organizers were very happy to play it up. They had hired the rabbit to make it a fast race. When the stars didn't bother to run, it was they who were at fault, not the rabbit for finishing.

As long as they're running the entire race, under the same conditions as the other competitors, then that seems fine to me.

(From the article, and some other comments, I thought that the "rabbits" were running only part of the race.)

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#184

Post by popotamonga »

rojeee wrote: post #129
boppo1 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

I'm 38 and run about 80km a week on average and have run since I was 12 years old. Humans are built for running! Any notion that running is bad for the average person is nonsense (clearly if you have some known underlying issue which may prevent running, e.g. one leg longer than the other, then it's best to avoid running)... Anyway, the key to not screwing up your knees, getting shin splints, IT band syndrome, or wha…

I must be doing something really wrong, i'm 41 run 50km a week (for 10+yrs) and my Best i can do is 5km @ 7:15 and i'll be dead running 190bpm+ for the whole duration (and sometimes 200)

must be the genetics.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#185

Post by francisofascii »

thrdbndndn wrote: post #79
ck2 wrote: post #41

There is also a six percent power savings drafting the pacer in running. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35834628/ That translates to a 3-6 minute benefit in a marathon.

Not sure if you can directly translate like that. It's not like when people finish a marathon they used all their energies. And their "output rate" per time (or per mile) may be limited by other factors.

The NIH paper indicated that optimal drafting will save between 3 min 42 s and 5 min 29 s of time for a 2 hour marathon pace. Just to clarify it wasn't the OP that ran that calculation.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#186

Post by hallway_monitor »

boppo1 wrote: post #102
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

Have you tried running barefoot or with "Barefoot" sandals? It will quickly teach you the correct way to run without your heels touching the ground, which removes the impact stress from the knee. I have very much liked using them, albeit I haven't run on a treadmill.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#188

Post by AtlasBarfed »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #159
morepork wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.

4:30 is not an elite mile pace at any level of male competition except races above 8k. For mid-distance races (typically considered 800m and 1500m, or 1000m indoors or 1600m in Europe outdoors) it would be quite slow. A typical elite (D1 college) 800m time is 1:50, and champions are around 1:40. An above average high schooler recruitable to D3 can run 2:00. D1 recruits typically have mile time of 4:15 or faster. Most…

nitpick: 800m world record is 1:40.91

... the 800 is also not a race where the WR time is challenged on a regular basis. Championship 800m racing is a wait and kick affair which never lends itself to ultrafast times because the first 400 is loafed.

The scary thing about David Rudisha's WR set at the 2012 Oly was that it was a solo wire-to-wire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs

That DOES NOT HAPPEN in championship middle distance racing. Does not happen.

Almost all middle distance records are set with precisely controlled tracks, weather, pacers, and racers to provide best conditions and drafting and temperature for the best times.

Rudisha showed up a the Olympic Final, threw down a gauntlet to the field, and blew them away.

You can see at the 500m mark of the video there were four or five runners who perfectly paced and tactically positioned themselves, where 999/1000 times the leader will fall off and get blown away by the chasers. What happens as a chaser is that instictive additional adrenaline surges as you chase down your quarry, and you're running through a draft for additional momentym.

At 500m, Rudisha accelerates and leaves these other runners, who perfectly placed themselves for the usual chasedown, and just leaves them in the dust.

Now consider he is losing 1 second a 400m without a draft/rabbit....

Also, I'd like to point out that the 800m is probably the most painful race of the track events. Typically you'll be well into anaerobic debt as you complete the first lap, and the second lap is allllllll pain. A typical 800m racer will hit 500m or so, his body is saying "HOLY SHIT STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING" and that's when the racer ... has to kick and exert maximal effort for the next 200-300m.

Rudisha as I understand wasn't a rift valley tribesman, the usual source of Kenyan elite distance runners who have genetic adaptations to altitude and efficient oxygen use / high VO2. He was a Maasai from the central lowlands.

Just an amazing race.

Now, I'm also a cynic of Olympic level performance, but that's for another day.

RE: D1 recruits at 15:00/5k: the NUTS part of that is that 15:00/5k is barely competitive pace for elite MARATHONs these days (under good conditions like Rotterdam, Chicago, or London). So you get recruited for D1 for running a speed for 3 miles that an elite racer keeps up for 26 miles.

Kind of along those lines, a lot of people don't realize how elite rabbits have to be just to run the proper pace for 1/2 to 1/3 the distance. They can't really go under the top 50 in the world to rabbit, otherwise they won't have the reliable talent to run the pace even on a so-so day.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#189

Post by AtlasBarfed »

bkirkby wrote: post #151
bookofjoe wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Running Does Not Increase Symptoms or Structural Progression in People with Knee Osteoarthritis: Data from the Osteoarthritis Initiative https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095814/ >History of Running is Not Associated with Higher Risk of Symptomatic Knee Osteoarthritis: A Cross-Sectional Study from the Osteoarthritis Initiative https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5179322/ >Running does not lead t…

Curious what you can find about IT bands? I used to run triathlons. Stopped when I had a long recovery from a cracked foot. 10 years later I have chronic IT band tightening that pulls my knee out of alignment and causes constant pain. When I was doing triathlon, I was in the Clydesdale division because I had a physique more like a football player than a runner. I've often wondered if my leg/knee problems of today are…

You should do a very thorough course of pilates and core strengthening, and possibly some squats/leg presses. The IT bands and other problems that untrack are all about balanced strength groups in your butt/groins/core.

I had patellar chondromalacia for about a year after one of my Ironmans and I couldn't get it to go away. I started doing a mat pilates and it went away within a could weeks.

Then I had back problems kinda like sciatica, and that was solved with the leg presses, but I feel the leg presses helped make the knees even healthier.

The other issue with running as a triathlete, especially a clydesdale, is that you may be excessively heel planting. It can be hard to transition to midfoot planting for a big dude, but it is much much easier on your knees.

You'd have to do some sprinting on your toes, very unorthodox for triathlons, but even then it is very hard to change the fundamental style of running.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#190

Post by js2 »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #188
TechBro8615 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4:30 is not an elite mile pace at any level of male competition except races above 8k. For mid-distance races (typically considered 800m and 1500m, or 1000m indoors or 1600m in Europe outdoors) it would be quite slow. A typical elite (D1 college) 800m time is 1:50, and champions are around 1:40. An above average high schooler recruitable to D3 can run 2:00. D1 recruits typically have mile time of 4:15 or faster. Most…

nitpick: 800m world record is 1:40.91 ... the 800 is also not a race where the WR time is challenged on a regular basis. Championship 800m racing is a wait and kick affair which never lends itself to ultrafast times because the first 400 is loafed. The scary thing about David Rudisha's WR set at the 2012 Oly was that it was a solo wire-to-wire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs That DOES NOT HAPPEN in champ…

> At 500m, Rudisha accelerates and leaves these other runners

In his 2012 Olympic 1:40.91 win (and WR) his splits were 49.28, 51.63, so he didn't accelerate. He slowed down less than the rest of the field.

In his prior 2010 WR of 1:41.01 his splits were 48.9, 52.1.

So in 2012 he went out slightly slower and then faded less in the second lap. Which is interesting because it's typical of the 800M to run positive splits, but he improved his time by running a bit closer to an even split.

From https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20800858/800-mete...

> In 2007, [exercise physiologist and Science of Sport blogger Ross] Tucker analyzed the 26 men’s world records set for 800 meters in the modern era. He found that 24 of the 26 were set with positive splits. In fact, the last time a world record was set with a negative split was in 1972, when Dave Wottle ran 1:44.3 to bring gold home to the United States. His last lap of 51.4 is also the fastest ever in a world-record race, despite the fact that record has fallen more than 3 seconds in the last four decades.

1:44.3 was at the US Olympic trials. Here's the 1972 Olympics 800 final (one of my favorites):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45k

Wottle wins in 1:45.86 with a slight negative split of ~53.3, ~52.56. Here you could legitimately claim Wottle accelerated on his competitors (he's in last place at 500m), though mostly they went out much too fast and faded badly.

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