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A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

nytimes.com

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Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#71

Post by freddie_mercury »

dieselgate wrote: post #55
freddie_mercury wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Olympics has allowed professional athletes since 1986.

This wasn’t a blanket rule allowed for all events though right? Michael Jordan and the USA men’s basketball dream team come to mind as obvious professionals but it seems for boxing, as an example, Professionals weren’t allowed to compete until more recently (2016) https://www.rookieroad.com/boxing/can-pro-boxers-compete-in-...

Jordan not being able to play wasn't because of Olympic rules. It was because of FIBA rules, which where changed after the 1988 Olympics.

I don't follow boxing so not sure what the deal was there.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#72

Post by js2 »

scns wrote: post #69
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

> speed up a bit on the downhills That is bad for your knees. [edit] I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall.

My $0.02: Sitting on the couch is bad for your knees. Over-striding is bad for your knees. A weak core is bad for your knees. Running slightly faster on downhills is not bad for your knees.

FWIW, I've read nearly every running book there is including that one. I still have healthy knees at 51 and have run tens of thousands of miles on them over all sorts of terrain.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#73

Post by js2 »

wging wrote: post #57
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin... : "Pugh runs some calculations to det…

By "wind breaking potential" I meant both that from air resistance as well as that from a breeze, but I appreciate the clarification.

Even at the marathon distance it matters as we saw with Kipchoge’s Nike sponsored sub-2 run a few years back. Of course, Kipchoge ran that thing at 4:34/mi pace, not far off middle distance race pace!

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#74

Post by js2 »

morepork wrote: post #61
wging wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin... : "Pugh runs some calculations to det…

4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.

Track races are often won in photo finishes. Everything matters.

And that 2 minutes over the marathon is currently more than the difference between a sub-2 hour marathon (1:59:40) and not (2:01:09):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#75

Post by quchen »

llimllib wrote: post #9
caminante wrote: post #4

This service is a "PED" for elite runners. Kipchoge broke the marathon WR with a team of fresh runners to draft off of.[0] [0] https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/10/06/drafting-can-save-...

That run isn’t and never has been considered the marathon WR for that and other reasons

What are the other reasons? I'm not familiar with running, I assumed it was the rotating team.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#76

Post by michaelt »

quchen wrote: post #75
llimllib wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That run isn’t and never has been considered the marathon WR for that and other reasons

What are the other reasons? I'm not familiar with running, I assumed it was the rotating team.

[1] says that as well as the 41 rotating pacemakers, there's the lack of open competition and the delivery of water by bicycle.

Guinness recognises it as "Fastest marathon distance (male)" and "First marathon distance under two hours" despite these factors.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineos_1:59_Challenge

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#77

Post by tguvot »

js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

>Yes, runners can use a variety of electronic devices (GPS watches, heart rate monitors, accelerometers on your shoe) to try to set their own pace but none of these are perfect. They also require constant attention.

Yes, those devices do require constant attention, usually by glancing at watch, what is rather distracting. But, something that mostly resolved this deficiency, at least for me, was Garmin Varia Vision - tiny heads up display mounted to sunglasses. it can keep in your eyesight all the relevant metrics. It is a great help for me in outdoor runs

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#78

Post by pg314 »

scns wrote: post #69
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

> speed up a bit on the downhills That is bad for your knees. [edit] I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall.

> That is bad for your knees.

[Citation needed]

I wouldn't recommend speeding up on the downhills for beginning runners. But if you're well conditioned, running slightly faster on the downhills in a relaxed way won't hurt your knees. It all depends on the slope of course. On very steep hills, it simply isn't be possible to run fast downhill.

> I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall.

It's an entertaining read, but that's about it. The science is to be taken with a large grain of salt. (I've run more than 50000 km since reading it.)

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#79

Post by thrdbndndn »

ck2 wrote: post #41

There is also a six percent power savings drafting the pacer in running. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35834628/ That translates to a 3-6 minute benefit in a marathon.

Not sure if you can directly translate like that.

It's not like when people finish a marathon they used all their energies. And their "output rate" per time (or per mile) may be limited by other factors.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#80

Post by infamousclyde »

pg314 wrote: post #78
scns wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> speed up a bit on the downhills That is bad for your knees. [edit] I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall.

> That is bad for your knees. [Citation needed] I wouldn't recommend speeding up on the downhills for beginning runners. But if you're well conditioned, running slightly faster on the downhills in a relaxed way won't hurt your knees. It all depends on the slope of course. On very steep hills, it simply isn't be possible to run fast downhill. > I highly recommend the book Born to Run by Cristopher McDougall. It's an e…

Yeah, I've read Born to Run too. I think it's pretty naive to deduce that the modern shoe industry is responsible for joint/tendon issues. Frankly, more pros would be wearing minimalist footwear if it was the cure-all as written. To be clear, if the minimalist footwear trend works for someone, that's great for them. But if you played the game of "I spy" for minimalist footwear at any professional meet with distance runners... Good luck finding a pair.
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