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A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

nytimes.com

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Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#161

Post by sasawpg »

iamacyborg wrote: post #157
rojeee wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 38 and run about 80km a week on average and have run since I was 12 years old. Humans are built for running! Any notion that running is bad for the average person is nonsense (clearly if you have some known underlying issue which may prevent running, e.g. one leg longer than the other, then it's best to avoid running)... Anyway, the key to not screwing up your knees, getting shin splints, IT band syndrome, or wha…

Great advice except for point 5. Carbs are fantastic, eat them.

Can't upvote this enough. Carbs are king for endurance, though I tend to drink most of mine as I find it easier.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#162

Post by 12345hn6789 »

dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #70
kashyapc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.

Do you have any citations for your bro science?

Runners have been eating "gel" for years during races. You don't run out of carbs if you properly prepare for a marathon

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#163

Post by sasawpg »

haspok wrote: post #134
infamousclyde wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you are a pro athlete (in which case you have your own dietician anyway) Why not train like a professional athlete and just eat a balanced diet, like their dieticians recommend? My partner has represented my country in the Olympics in a long distance track event and none of her support staff have ever advocated for keto as a responsible diet for her training needs. I mean, the science says fat is less energy…

> Why not train like a professional athlete and just eat a balanced diet... Because professional athletes are anything but "balanced". Professional sport is about abusing your body as much as you can possibly get away with, and then some more. For a normal person following a pro's training plans or diet could be the worst thing they could do to their body. > science says fat is less energy-available than a simple sou…

> I think what pros (eg. pro cyclists) do is that they try to find the best of both worlds - they train a LOT in lower intensity zones so they get very good at fat burning without actually reaching keto, but they then supplement it with the right type and amount of carbs during races so that they don't lose sprint power. But this is only my theory, I have never been a pro, and never been close to these circles.

You couldn't be further from the truth, especially in a race scenario, not to mention a stage race or a grand tour. Professional (and most well versed) cyclist will pile on carbs in the days leading up to a race, eat a pile the morning of the race and then continue to eat and drink a massive quantity of carbs. It has everything with them being able to replenish what's lost during a race lasting several hours, it is not at all sprint specific. They'll easily aim at 100+ grams of carbs per hour.

I would consider myself a well versed and well trained amateur cyclist. Depending on length of training session and intensity of efforts, I'll aim for 50-100g/hr. In a race my goal is 80-100g/hr from the second the race starts. I've done well enough in multiple 6-9+ hour races and training sessions.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#164

Post by banDeveloper »

haspok wrote: post #147
banDeveloper wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You deplete your carb stores after a few hours (depending on pace etc), and then YOU ARE RUNNING ON KETONES, whether you like it or not. You physically cannot eat and digest enough carbs to sustain your pace for any longer period of time. What do you mean, this is precisely why all professional runners and cyclists consume gels. Not only is it possible to not deplete your carb stores, it's actually pretty easy to k…

Pros are pros, but you are not one (are you?), you don't have the experience, the time, the regeneration, the genes, the attitude, the money. So you might as well ignore most of what they do, because you are not one of them. > Sure you won't feel a loss of energy, because you've never had that energy in the first place. I don't understand why you would remove a major fuel source entirely. That's a bold statement. Hav…

Which part do you think applies exclusively to the pros though, I think it applies to everybody. I only used the pros as an example, since they are incentivised to perform at their best and therefore are most likely to apply the best fueling strategies.

> Have you ever tried it?

I have not tried it. Can you provide some sources explaining how it gives any more energy than metabolizing fat does?

> Imagine that you don't bonk, no matter if you eat or not, and you can still keep roughly the same level of intensity for the entirety of your session, however long it might be. As a matter of fact, you feel just as fresh mentally at the end as at the start. That's why.

You don't need to be ketogenic for that though, you just gotta keep it slow. One of my very last outdoor rides last year was like that. 100km ride where I kept it strictly in zone 2. It felt easy and I had a blast. Can't say I felt just as fresh as at the start though.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#165

Post by warner25 »

rojeee wrote: post #129
boppo1 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

I'm 38 and run about 80km a week on average and have run since I was 12 years old. Humans are built for running! Any notion that running is bad for the average person is nonsense (clearly if you have some known underlying issue which may prevent running, e.g. one leg longer than the other, then it's best to avoid running)... Anyway, the key to not screwing up your knees, getting shin splints, IT band syndrome, or wha…

I appreciate this comment. I'm 36 and started running at 16, mostly to prepare for the Army's physical fitness test which includes a two-mile run. I'm still going.

Point 0 is one that I've had to learn and re-learn several times, because it's a hard pill to swallow. When you don't have much time to train (and I've never felt like I had time for more than 20 miles per week as an adult), it's tempting to feel like you can make up for it by training harder. Oddly, the Army actually teaches that we should run no more than three times per week, and no more than a few miles, but to make those runs faster, to reduce injuries. I don't know why. Whenever I've gotten hurt, it was due to trying to run faster than I was ready for.

Point 1 reminds me of my favorite passage in Daniels' Running Formula: "If a group of beginners were required to start running 100 miles a week, two things would probably occur: Many runners would hurt themselves, and many who didn't get hurt would adjust to taking quicker, lighter steps." I read that book after my first ten years of running and made a radical change to a forefoot strike with something closer to his recommended 180 steps per minute.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#166

Post by bravetraveler »

axlee wrote: post #139
myself248 wrote: post #136

A funny headline, given that I was just reading up on the history of the "Black Ghost", a nickname given by other racers to a muscle-car which would dominate Detroit street races in the 70s, but never hung around to socialize. The car would just show up, win, and disappear, sometimes for weeks or months, before surfacing again to win, and again to vanish. Nobody knew the driver, nobody could get a look at him, and he…

rot13 for the curious

"He was a cop by day, street-racer by night."

For the curious and lazy

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#167

Post by caminante »

quchen wrote: post #75
llimllib wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That run isn’t and never has been considered the marathon WR for that and other reasons

What are the other reasons? I'm not familiar with running, I assumed it was the rotating team.

The parent above is "gatekeeping" by saying that even though the runner ran the fastest marathon, it wasn't an IAAF-qualified marathon.

Kipchoge currently has the WR for both.

The whole controversy for the "fastest marathon" is they kept cycling fresh/new runners during the run for Kipchoge to draft off of and conserve energy. These pacers (like the aforementioned runner in the HN article) provide an aerodynamic boost.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#168

Post by rojeee »

iamacyborg wrote: post #157
rojeee wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 38 and run about 80km a week on average and have run since I was 12 years old. Humans are built for running! Any notion that running is bad for the average person is nonsense (clearly if you have some known underlying issue which may prevent running, e.g. one leg longer than the other, then it's best to avoid running)... Anyway, the key to not screwing up your knees, getting shin splints, IT band syndrome, or wha…

Great advice except for point 5. Carbs are fantastic, eat them.

Just to clarify. I eat carbs! Just not refined carbs or sugars, and only on days I need to replenish glycogen or make sure I’m topped up. Get most of my intake from super starch, fruit or vegetables. I don’t eat pasta or bread.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#169

Post by swalling »

dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #70
kashyapc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this explanation. I'm a newbie runner -- been running for a year-and-a-half. I'm aiming to break the 2hr mark in my 3rd half-marathon next month. My last half-m in Oct 2022 took 2hr9min. I know, 9 minutes is a lot to shave off :-). I'll first aim to finish healthily. Your message encourages me to join a pacer. (The last 5KM of a half-m feel endless.)

Stop eating carbs about 2 months before. I did this and went from a 2:06 to 1:58 with minimal training. My body carried several kg less weight and felt like it could consume its own fat energy more efficiently and I didn’t get the 2/3 slump. I also started last, ran down the 2hr pace guy, then tried to stay 100m ahead of him. It felt primal being chased down by somebody and kept the mind sharp.

This is egregiously bad advice.

There is zero evidence that keto or low carb/high fat diets improve running performance. There's actually consistently reproduced evidence that it impairs performance at high intensities. Studies: https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP278928, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16357078/, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26553488/, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32497061/

Summary if you don't want to read all the studies: https://trainright.com/should-endurance-athletes-go-keto-ket...

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#170

Post by iamacyborg »

rojeee wrote: post #168
iamacyborg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great advice except for point 5. Carbs are fantastic, eat them.

Just to clarify. I eat carbs! Just not refined carbs or sugars, and only on days I need to replenish glycogen or make sure I’m topped up. Get most of my intake from super starch, fruit or vegetables. I don’t eat pasta or bread.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with refined carbs though.

Sugar is good, take some during long runs and hard training sessions to aid recovery. It’s also absolutely necessary as a fuel source during long races.

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