Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 203 posts

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#151

Post by bkirkby »

bookofjoe wrote: post #124
boppo1 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

>Running Does Not Increase Symptoms or Structural Progression in People with Knee Osteoarthritis: Data from the Osteoarthritis Initiative https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095814/ >History of Running is Not Associated with Higher Risk of Symptomatic Knee Osteoarthritis: A Cross-Sectional Study from the Osteoarthritis Initiative https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5179322/ >Running does not lead t…

Curious what you can find about IT bands? I used to run triathlons. Stopped when I had a long recovery from a cracked foot. 10 years later I have chronic IT band tightening that pulls my knee out of alignment and causes constant pain.

When I was doing triathlon, I was in the Clydesdale division because I had a physique more like a football player than a runner. I've often wondered if my leg/knee problems of today are casually related to my choice to seriously do an exercise against body type.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#152

Post by mattkrause »

morepork wrote: post #61
wging wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin... : "Pugh runs some calculations to det…

4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.

A 4:30 mile is a respectable mile time for a high school boy.

It's good enough to be competitive at a state level (4:28 placed 7th in CT this year) but won't have D1 coaches salivating at the mouth.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#153

Post by infamousclyde »

haspok wrote: post #134
infamousclyde wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you are a pro athlete (in which case you have your own dietician anyway) Why not train like a professional athlete and just eat a balanced diet, like their dieticians recommend? My partner has represented my country in the Olympics in a long distance track event and none of her support staff have ever advocated for keto as a responsible diet for her training needs. I mean, the science says fat is less energy…

> Why not train like a professional athlete and just eat a balanced diet... Because professional athletes are anything but "balanced". Professional sport is about abusing your body as much as you can possibly get away with, and then some more. For a normal person following a pro's training plans or diet could be the worst thing they could do to their body. > science says fat is less energy-available than a simple sou…

> Because professional athletes are anything but "balanced"

I'm sorry, how much money do you think professional runners make that it affords them some crazy diet that the general public can't tolerate? Not even professional runners for that matter-- college runners, or even high schoolers. My partner and all of her colleagues that compete at the international level in Canada have part-time jobs. My partner is in grad school full-time at the moment, too. They aren't "abusing their body" as much as possible, they just do a lot of base mileage, two key workouts a week, and recover and eat properly-- and they've done that for years. That's the secret.

I eat with, and cook for my girlfriend, and I am a brutally normal guy in the military. We just use standard ingredients and try to cook things from scratch. We have pizza and/or go out to eat about once every two weeks or so. This isn't purely anecdotal, it's completely reasonable to run a 120km/wk and maintain a normal life-- that's most elite runners on the field, and I make that assessment as a guy who has been in these circles through my partner.

I would disagree with your assessment of "unstoppable" versus "fastest". You can certainly have both with carbohydrates. Moreover, given the parent comment wanted to get faster, I would probably not reach for keto under your recommendation.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#154

Post by kashyapc »

haspok wrote: post #144
kashyapc wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much misleading "advice" in the above comment that it's not even worth refuting. I just want to warn to others lurking here to be cautious with it. From the little I know (which is nothing!), going the "keto" route needs a specialist advice[1]. Diet is a charged topic; it would do us good to stay grounded. It's tempting to dole out uninformed advice on the internet. Please resist. The point you raised at…

> It's tempting to dole out uninformed advice on the internet. ...says he, and then links to a page of advice on the internet. The "Keto Diet Risks" section on that page is such an epic, "that it's not even worth refuting". >> Fuzzy thinking and mood swings. "The brain needs sugar from healthy carbohydrates to function. Low-carb diets may cause confusion and irritability," This shows that whoever wrote this has never…

[Hi, I am not trying to be confrontational.]

> [...] and then links to a page of advice on the internet [...]

There's a world of difference between an armchair internet-dietitian (no, I'm not implying you are one) and a registered dietitian that is the "director of the Department of Nutrition at Harvard-affiliated Brigham and Women's Hospital" (the author of the said article). It's not appeal to authority—we have to start somewhere. That doesn't mean the said page is 100% accurate.

> But let me ask about your personal experience with keto or fasting [...]

No, I did not try Keto. Yes, I've done fasting before; and yes, it was beneficial. Personally, I'm disciplined with food; almost like a machine, I can happily maintain a healthy diet, without having to "negotiate with myself".

Please note, I'm not denying there are no benefits to Keto or fasting at all. I even recently listened to an episode on Keto on Huberman Lab Podcast to educate myself on it. I don't have personal experience of it, so I refrain to talk about it. Much less use data-points-of-one as a generalization.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#155

Post by infamousclyde »

Eupraxias wrote: post #145
richeyryan wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is technically true if you go out and start running a lot from zero if you are overweight or ignore your body and the warnings it gives in the run-up to injury. If you build up running gradually and treat it as a skill that you learn and improve on your technique and always listen to the feedback your body is giving you, then running is a great way to improve the health of the joints, muscles and bones in your l…

Can anyone point to more details about the kinds of injury one sustains when going to "a lot from zero"? What can be done to fix such injuries?

As a guy who has run basic training for recruits in the military, I would say the most common is shin splints (by far), followed by tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, IT band syndrome, and in exceptionally rare cases, compartment syndrome (although I have seen it, and this requires surgery to correct).

Prevention is key for these-- particularly by familiarizing your body with the loads incrementally. While some may have the aerobic fitness to complete a 5k (even if they're new to running-- a cyclist or swimmer, perhaps) the musculo-skeletal adaptations involved with consistency haven't occurred yet, and injury is a lot more likely. Even elite runners, when they're "getting back into it" start with alternating run-walks to avoid the "too much, too fast" loading.

Most of these can be addressed by seeing a physiotherapist, and normally involve cutting mileage or pace significantly and/or strengthening weak supporting muscles.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#156

Post by iamacyborg »

Eupraxias wrote: post #133
bookofjoe wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Running Does Not Increase Symptoms or Structural Progression in People with Knee Osteoarthritis: Data from the Osteoarthritis Initiative https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095814/ >History of Running is Not Associated with Higher Risk of Symptomatic Knee Osteoarthritis: A Cross-Sectional Study from the Osteoarthritis Initiative https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5179322/ >Running does not lead t…

This is dangerous. My friend blew out his knee pushing too hard with trailrunning, and now he can never run again.

Telling people not to run due to a misconception about perceived harm is much more harmful than the risk of a serious knee injury from running.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#157

Post by iamacyborg »

rojeee wrote: post #129
boppo1 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

I'm 38 and run about 80km a week on average and have run since I was 12 years old. Humans are built for running! Any notion that running is bad for the average person is nonsense (clearly if you have some known underlying issue which may prevent running, e.g. one leg longer than the other, then it's best to avoid running)... Anyway, the key to not screwing up your knees, getting shin splints, IT band syndrome, or wha…

Great advice except for point 5.

Carbs are fantastic, eat them.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#158

Post by js2 »

boppo1 wrote: post #102
js2 wrote: post #45

In an amateur context, I've paced about a half dozen races, half marathon and marathon distance. I've also served as a pacer for runners in the second half of a 100 mile race a couple times. The purpose of a pacer for amateur runners is to set a consistent pace and provide encouragement to runners who may be running their first race at that distance. Or maybe someone trying to set a new PR. Since most courses are not…

How do these runners knees not succumb to problems? Genetic lottery? I run 6 miles on a treadmill with zero drop & pronation inserts, stretch withe a calf wedge & still feel like I'm flying close to the sun with my knees.

Running is a highly repetitive task and it will amplify any biomechanical issues you have.

In the first phase of my running career, I used to struggle with achilles tendon problems, nothing any shoe or podiatrist or orthopedist was able to properly diagnose or fix.

Eventually I saw a PT. The PT clued me in that I had a weak core and bad biomechanics. To use an analogy: I was like a car with an out of alignment suspension. And I had been trying to fix it by changing the tires. When what I needed to do was fix the suspension. The suspension is everything above your feet, but in particular your hips and core. And mine were in terrible shape from years of sitting before I started running in my late twenties.

So I had to re-invent myself as a runner.

Originally I started with the exercises the PT gave me for my hips and core. I got rid of my motion-control shoes and my prescription orthopedic inserts. I switched to just a basic cushioned shoe. Shoes are like unsprung mass on a vehicle. I didn't want any more weight on my feet than I absolutely needed, especially since I wear size 11-12 shoes.

I started to pay attention to and work on my form. I found the PT exercises boring so I ended up joining a Crossfit gym for a couple years which worked for me, but I don't recommend Crossfit as generic advice since Crossfit gym and coach quality varies widely. But it worked for me.

With my form and strength in better shape, it enabled me to start putting in more mileage. Whereas previously I couldn't run more than 35 miles/week w/o risking injury, I was now able to comfortably run 65-75 miles/week. That allowed me to take on the types of training routines that I needed to achieve some of my time and distance goals.

Now, I know some folks who never cross train and don't get injured and maybe they just naturally have good form.

But for me it was something I had to work at. And the best kind of professional I know for advising you on this is a PT who is themselves a runner and works with runners.

The image I keep in mind when I'm thinking about running form is Mo Farah's:

https://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/14th+IAAF+World+Athletic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxf1gEkm_EE

Here's some of the exercises he does to have and maintain that form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx2i6TKMi1A

And for comparison, here's Ed Whitlock in his 80s:

https://mindmotionmatter.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/ed-runn...

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#159

Post by TechBro8615 »

morepork wrote: post #61
wging wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin... : "Pugh runs some calculations to det…

4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.

4:30 is not an elite mile pace at any level of male competition except races above 8k. For mid-distance races (typically considered 800m and 1500m, or 1000m indoors or 1600m in Europe outdoors) it would be quite slow. A typical elite (D1 college) 800m time is 1:50, and champions are around 1:40. An above average high schooler recruitable to D3 can run 2:00.

D1 recruits typically have mile time of 4:15 or faster. Most high school distance/mid-distance runners compete in 5k in the fall and 1500 or 3k in the spring. D1 recruitable times for those are 15:00-15:30 for 5k (mile pace of 4:50), 3:50-4:00 for 1500 (equivalent of about 4:07 - 4:20 mile time), and 8:30-8:45 for 3k (mile pace of about 4:30).

Regarding air resistance and "drafting" off a pacer, this is definitely a real effect, although it's a much bigger deal outdoors especially with wind. Often in mid-distance races, there are multiple rounds and you need to qualify for the next by placing highly (not necessarily the same as "fast") in the prelims - it's common for early rounds to have slow times because of "tactical" races where every runner stays in the pack at a slow pace for 3/4 of the race, and then the "real race" happens on the final lap.

source: used to be sort of fast.

Re: A runner who leads every pack and then vanishes

#160

Post by gabereiser »

nl wrote: post #44
gabereiser wrote: post #36

I went to school with Alan Webb [1]. We were all essentially rabbits to him. I’ve never seen someone run so fast, for so long of a distance, in such a short time. He went on to have an amazing career, obviously. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Webb_(runner)

Oh wow that would be amazing. Did you actually run with him?

Yes, well no, I ran the mile in gym class like we all did. He was in my gym class and would be finished before I completed my first lap…
Post reply on HN