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Upwork just stole $10k from me

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Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#61

Post by anonzzzies »

ajb wrote: post #44

One of the reasons that criminal acts are criminal is that they destroy value. For example, when metal prices go up, criminals steal wires from railway lines. This gains them a couple of hundred bucks of metal, and costs tens of thousands in disruption and reinstallation. This kind of action by companies should be criminal, because they just destroyed economic activity worth at least $10000, because they didn't want…

Any AI or automated process where money is involved , any invalid action (deemed so by a human arbitrar) should be punished extremely hard, for any company. Gdpr hard; simply costing a % of the revenue if it turns out wrong and if the process was not reviewed and discussed with an actual human. We cannot just let this go on.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#63

Post by roundandround »

jrumbut wrote: post #39
jb1991 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moderator replied to me a couple months ago that these kinds of posts are usually penalized so HN doesn’t become a support site, but I still see them quite often on here on the front page. I had been commenting that when such posts are made for YC companies, they rarely make it to the front page. > there has been a glut lately of stories using HN as customer-support-of-last-resort or generic-complaints-about-$compa…

Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations. I'm willing to have to scroll past one person's headache in the hope that if I suddenly lose my XYZ account I will be able to get redress through the same avenue.

Without these there's also not as much to counter survivor bias in the stories/recipes of successful use of rental economy, freemium services, etc.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#64

Post by anonzzzies »

Xylakant wrote: post #52
ajb wrote: post #44

One of the reasons that criminal acts are criminal is that they destroy value. For example, when metal prices go up, criminals steal wires from railway lines. This gains them a couple of hundred bucks of metal, and costs tens of thousands in disruption and reinstallation. This kind of action by companies should be criminal, because they just destroyed economic activity worth at least $10000, because they didn't want…

I would expect that to be illegal already in most jurisdictions. I believe in Germany you could argue it constitutes fraud. Either the client received the work and it’s fine, then the contractor is owed payment for the work. Or the client did not receive the work, then they are owed the payment that they made. Upwork permanently keeping the money from both sides is almost certainly not an option. They might be permit…

The problem is fighting it; in Germany this would cost quite a bit, even if you win. It should be a protection that if you cannot talk to a human who has mandate, you get your money back.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#65

Post by ajb »

Xylakant wrote: post #52
ajb wrote: post #44

One of the reasons that criminal acts are criminal is that they destroy value. For example, when metal prices go up, criminals steal wires from railway lines. This gains them a couple of hundred bucks of metal, and costs tens of thousands in disruption and reinstallation. This kind of action by companies should be criminal, because they just destroyed economic activity worth at least $10000, because they didn't want…

I would expect that to be illegal already in most jurisdictions. I believe in Germany you could argue it constitutes fraud. Either the client received the work and it’s fine, then the contractor is owed payment for the work. Or the client did not receive the work, then they are owed the payment that they made. Upwork permanently keeping the money from both sides is almost certainly not an option. They might be permit…

Yeah, I would hope so. But I mean in the more general case. If google closes your account with no recourse, they don't make any money from doing so, but if you bought into their marketing and relied on them, then you lose a lot of value. Companies encourage tens of thousands of consumers and businesses to rely on them, should be required to be able to be held to account by those they have led to rely on them.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#66

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

Exactly the case where Bitcoin could be useful. I remember paying someone 0.6 BTC for a day's work processing a bunch of photos :) As to those sites, Fiverr proved the most convenient, hired a lot of contractors there. They accepted Bitcoin at that time, not sure about now.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#67

Post by jb1991 »

zamnos wrote: post #32
jb1991 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moderator replied to me a couple months ago that these kinds of posts are usually penalized so HN doesn’t become a support site, but I still see them quite often on here on the front page. I had been commenting that when such posts are made for YC companies, they rarely make it to the front page. > there has been a glut lately of stories using HN as customer-support-of-last-resort or generic-complaints-about-$compa…

Maybe for smaller YC companies, but this story on Stripe got 1624 points, which meant it was probably on the frontpage for multiple days, and inside they say they only brought it up because someone else mentioned having a problem. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32854528

The number of upvotes is not a reflection of whether or not it was on the front page, but maybe that one was. But the post linked above (about Airbnb) had received a couple hundred of votes in less than one hour, but was not on the front page due to moderation (confirmed by the moderator), while most posts with that level of votes in such a short time would be very near the top of the front page.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#69

Post by ddtaylor »

jrumbut wrote: post #39
jb1991 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moderator replied to me a couple months ago that these kinds of posts are usually penalized so HN doesn’t become a support site, but I still see them quite often on here on the front page. I had been commenting that when such posts are made for YC companies, they rarely make it to the front page. > there has been a glut lately of stories using HN as customer-support-of-last-resort or generic-complaints-about-$compa…

Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations. I'm willing to have to scroll past one person's headache in the hope that if I suddenly lose my XYZ account I will be able to get redress through the same avenue.

> Personally, I see it as a benefit to be part of a community that can help in these situations.

The problem is that instead of actually solving the issue we are normalizing the idea that if you're in XYZ group you'll get proper treatment while everyone else gets screwed.

If you're on YouTube and have a massive audience or are friends with someone that has a major audience you may be spared the wrath of a rogue AI that decides you're violating some community guidelines.

If you're on Twitter and happen to have followed the magical sequence of fellow accounts you'll be allowed to keep your PayPal account after making enough ruckus.

If you're on HackerNews and get lucky at 4 AM on a Saturday night before the mods wake up you'll be allowed to keep your $10,000 in earnings.

I don't like the idea that unless I'm cliqued up on YouTube, Twitter and HackerNews I "deserve" to get screwed.

Re: Upwork just stole $10k from me

#70

Post by Xylakant »

anonzzzies wrote: post #64
Xylakant wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect that to be illegal already in most jurisdictions. I believe in Germany you could argue it constitutes fraud. Either the client received the work and it’s fine, then the contractor is owed payment for the work. Or the client did not receive the work, then they are owed the payment that they made. Upwork permanently keeping the money from both sides is almost certainly not an option. They might be permit…

The problem is fighting it; in Germany this would cost quite a bit, even if you win. It should be a protection that if you cannot talk to a human who has mandate, you get your money back.

If you prevail in Germany, most of the costs are placed on the loosing party. It’s still a problem, but in a case as such, I would hand it off to a lawyer and see where it goes. The bigger issue here is likely that the upwork terms of service stipulate a court in the US, and that will be hard to pursue.
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