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Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

letgrow.org

361–370 of 531 posts

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like this infrastructural risk is media driven to the extent of "pedophile kidnappers" or "razor blades in apples". For example I grew up in an Eastern MA "suburb" in the mid 90s - early 2000s, characterized by narrow winding roads, fast drivers, and no streetlights. Everyone too young or unconnected to have car access bicycled or walked everywhere; parents were a bit fearful but ultimately acquiescent ("bet…

I feel you, but this is clearly a “correlation is not causation” type situation. Infrastructure should be people-centric, and there’s nothing wrong with doing things to reduce car speed and make the built environment safe. It is unlikely that improved infrastructure resulted in people walking and biking less, which is what the wording of your post suggests. (Also, love your username… I thought I was the only one. ;-)…

Presumably the infrastructure development itself was not causative, but, the trend occurred nonetheless over roughly the same time course as the development.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#362
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had friends who should have been taken away from their neglecting parents, but never were. Turns out, if the child is not being literally beaten, all the parent has to do is not open the door when child services comes by. So if the child's teeth literally rot out of their mouth, they wear filthy clothes to school, they live in a house full of cat shit everywhere, and a rotted away caved in roof, all the parent has…

Yeah, the subculture of people who get incandescently angry about CPS aren't the kinds of people I'd want anywhere near children.

All well and good until you're on the reverse end of the stick. It cuts both ways. Sometimes CPS is direly necessary. Sometimes it's just harassment.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#363

The US seems to be the only country that has this problem. Children here (Norway) walk to school on their own at the age of five or six, some of them take buses. "Ashley Smith, a foster dad, testified about being investigated for neglect because one afternoon his daughter, 8, was doing her homework on the front lawn. A passerby reported an “unsupervised” child (not knowing Ashley was actually inside). The upshot: “We…

>"The US seems to be the only country that has this problem"

Same here in Canada. Retarded policy I think

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imo there's two factors at play only one of which seems to get much attention. There's the legality (and burden of compliance even when abiding the law) of leaving your children unsupervised but there's also the complete lack of penalty for being wrong. A person reporting abuse incorrectly is for all intents and purposes, an attacker. Why is attacking someone else with only a brief observation of the situation cost f…

I was reading Hammurabi's code the other day and was struck by the fact that the very first thing the code does is establish the consequences for bearing false witness. There's not even an allowance for "well, I thought it was true", if you are accusing another in court then you are running the risk of the same penalty that you are hoping to impose on the other person, whatever penalty that may be. There are lots of…

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Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#365
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The US seems to be the only country that has this problem. Children here (Norway) walk to school on their own at the age of five or six, some of them take buses." I grew up in New Zealand, and when I was a kid it was pretty normal to walk to school also. I spent my whole childhood walking 20-30 mins every morning and afternoon! Eventually I got a bike which saved a bit of time. But now days, I think it's not as co…

It’s the catch22 of it I suppose. Also grew up in rural Nz where walking / cycling alone from a fairly young age was normal. Now my kids are at that age they cycle a bit on their own, but even in our village there is a street they need to cross on the way to school where they need supervision. Really we should start a community lollipop person schedule and sort it out.

> lollipop person

TIL, "crossing guard" in Kiwi, how much cuter is that?

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#366
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also depends on where you live. If you are a suburban or rural kid, playing outside all you want is fine. Let them explore the neighborhood. If you live near a highway though, or a high crime area, then you might want to reconsider what you want to allow. You still need common sense. My main worry is people who live in relatively safe areas, like a suburban neighborhood, but with neighbors that will STILL call CPS…

> a high crime area What exactly do you expect to happen to your 6 year old? They’re not a very useful target for anything I can think of.

What do you think the children of people committing said crimes do? They mimic their parental figures. Child on child violence is a real thing and ignoring it just let's them turn into adult versions of the bullies they are.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That happens in places, but probably not in the places where people living here are. But if you are adopting from a foreign country beware that it is easy to kidnap some baby from a remote village. Some of the less ethical adoption agencies have done this in the past.

When China was adopting kids to abroad, I'm sure that happened. These days, I'm not sure if child trafficking is still a problem, I only hear anecdotes, and its all domestic (because China doesn't allow kids to be adopted abroad anymore except in very rare circumstances).

China is not the only country adopting. There are places in Africa to watch out for. Though many have stopped adopting as abuse was too common for the benefits.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#368
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had friends who should have been taken away from their neglecting parents, but never were. Turns out, if the child is not being literally beaten, all the parent has to do is not open the door when child services comes by. So if the child's teeth literally rot out of their mouth, they wear filthy clothes to school, they live in a house full of cat shit everywhere, and a rotted away caved in roof, all the parent has…

Yeah, the subculture of people who get incandescently angry about CPS aren't the kinds of people I'd want anywhere near children.

You imply that people who get "incandescent" about CPS abuse children, or believe that government should not have the right to stop parents who abuse children. I do neither of those things, yet I remain "incandescent" about CPS. So that you can understand why, I'll share a personal anecdote.

When I was in elementary school, CPS received an anonymous allegation of child abuse regarding my parent. That was false—there was no abuse. CPS investigated by sending a social worker to my school, who interviewed my sibling and me individually. My teacher insisted on being present so we would not be alone with the interviewer, something I've appreciated ever since I was old enough to understand the implication. In the end, the conclusion was: no abuse.

Later, CPS received another false, anonymous allegation. Our family went to a CPS facility, and my sibling and I were interviewed individually. A (non-parental) relative was allowed to be present. Conclusion: no abuse.

Later, CPS received yet another false, anonymous allegation. A cop showed up at our door, and threatened my parent with arrest if my sibling and I were not willingly given up to the cop. The cop drove us to another city in another county over 50 miles away, where we were taken to a safe house and interviewed individually by CPS, with nobody in the building except two social workers, us two children, and the police officer who had taken us from our home indefinitely. Conclusion: no abuse. At the end of the day, our parent picked us up.

I have had a deep mistrust of and visceral aversion to police and CPS ever since. Being taken from a safe, stable, loving home and not knowing if you will ever come back is deeply traumatic. It doesn't matter that we weren't taken for long—the damage was already done. My sibling and I knew that it could have easily gone the other way, and that it could easily happen again.

Thanks to that incident, I fully believe the parent in this story: https://reason.com/2019/04/25/adam-lowther-child-services-po...

It is very similar to what I experienced, except in magnitude. But... after the third incident, we sued CPS, and received a favorable outcome. If we had not known or had the resources to do so, perhaps the situation would have continued to escalate.

Cases where children are left with abuse parents are horrifying and sad. But I know the solution is not to give CPS free rein, low oversight, and the power to ignore due process. Doing so irreparably harms a different set of children.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even in the YouTube algorithm. I've had a couple of videos taken down due to "potential child endangerment". They were videos of me and my kid doing things that are, realistically, safer than riding a bicycle. It's pathetic how fragile kids are being made these days.

The YouTube rules are completely insane. Whoever makes them has totally lost their mind. For instance, YouTube recently implemented a policy such that they now demonitize videos that contain profanity in the first 15 seconds - AND THIS APPLIES RETROACTIVELY TO VIDEOS RELEASED BEFORE THE POLICY WAS CHANGED. Between that, the downvote count being removed, random demonetizations, mysterious channel shadowbans, the DMCA…

> AND THIS APPLIES RETROACTIVELY TO VIDEOS RELEASED BEFORE THE POLICY WAS CHANGED.

Which you can't edit without deleting and reuploading, breaking links, view counts, etc, right?

Does youtube happen to still show ads on those videos but now just pocket all the income?

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its been a genuine problem. I have heard people actually say that if a kid is playing outside by themselves, then the parent should be charged with child neglect because the kid could get hurt. Any time a kid gets hurt on YouTube the comments are filled with people blaming the parent for not being outside with them. Thing is, playing outside by yourself gives you a strong sense of independence. The kid might get hurt…

Sure, a reasonable risk is tolerable. But, for instance, car-centric infrastructure has *intensely* exacerbated those risks: space is completely surrendered to cars, sidewalks are non-existent, crosswalks go across 8 lanes of 60+mph traffic. All of this, plus terrible public transport, makes it impossible to travel anyway except by car. This leads to lack of independence for children, and sedentarism.

These risks have not increased substantially in the last 20 years, and in many ways they have decreased e.g. the mandatory backup cameras in new cars.
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