I'm still surprised these natural daylight lamps aren't widely commercialized yet https://youtu.be/aJ4TJ4-kkDw
LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
121–130 of 316 posts
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#122There is always a time lag between the introduction of a cool new technology, and the discovery of its negative effects on human health. DDT was invented in the 1940's, and it wasn't until twenty years later that people discovered its negative effects through bioaccumulation. Teflon was invented in the 1930's, and it again took decades to discover its negative effects on human health, apparently under high heat. Ciga…
Artificial lighting has existed for hundreds, if not tens of thousands, of years. People used to breathe superfines and ultrafines from daily cooking fires in nearly indoor conditions. Hell, people living in cities next to highways have no idea how they're shortening their lives if they don't have extreme MERV air filtration like I do. The AQI inside right now hovers at ~5. Outside, it varies from 15 to 200. I've been where P1.0-P10 was 5000+, to where going outside required a P100 or N100 full face respirator because the shit snowing from the air stings your eyes.
Comparing an imagined concern to the life-destroying travesties of Agent Orange, Tetraethyl lead (leaded gasoline), tobacco, lead acetate, DDT, PCBs, vinyl chloride, heavy metal- and actinide-polluted water, and radium poisoning is unscientific, lacking in perspective, and offensive.
To avoid evidence and testable hypothesizes is to become a conspiracy theorist.
If you're worried, turn off the screen and get a sleep mask. Artificial light won't turn your DNA into paper dolls. If it did, we'd know by now.
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#123There are also probably very personal and biological variables involved too that the post doesn't mention. I stare into monitors and phones all day long. Every light in the house is full-blown LED. I can't help but fall asleep at 20:00 in an led lit room watching led TVs, while my led phone drops onto the floor after I've fallen asleep. I've been in an extreme LED environment for over a decade and never have problems…
I've battled the opposite in the form of clinical, anxiety-driven insomnia my whole life. I've found it utterly debilitating at times and have quite literally struggled since birth, long before electronics and LEDs were common. I can confidently say you're so right about the number (and type) of variables. Sleep hygiene as we say in the biz is a very complex and personal issue. I've tried everything under the sun fro…
> The science is relatively clear on light though.
AFIK since is clear on:
- a increase in blue intensity reducing melatonin production
- higher melatonin levels before sleep helping with falling asleep
- melatonin is an important factor when it comes to the regulation of the inner clock
but the exact degree to which led light will make it harder to sleep, especially if in combination with other sleep issues, is much less clear cut
For example melatonin doesn't make you sleep, it (simplified) puts your body in a state in which it's easier to fall asleep. While that might sound like it's the same on the first look it's quite a huge difference.
In a certain way you could say melatonin is a major way our body signals itself "now is a good time to sleep", making it somewhat easier to fall asleep.
But people do not need melatonin to fall asleep. Some people can (oversimplified) fall asleep whenever they want, some are conditioned to fall asleep under some specific trigger. In both cases this often works pretty much unrelated to melatonin.
In the other direction if you have some issues which bare you from sleeping, e.g. bouts of anxiety or somniphobia, then having more or less melatonin is unlikely to make it difference, you won't sleep either way (EDIT: until you are strongly sleep deprived, overcome the anxiety or take some sleeping pills).
Anyway reducing the intensity of light in the evening, especially blue light, and making sure you get a lot of light in the morning (i.e. sun light, because your indoor light bulbs are most likely much much less intense) is always a good idea, even if it (hypothetically) would not affect melatonin it still would help with creating healthy habits, and habits are powerful.
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#124>find "r9" >no results >find "cri" >no results in post :/. This is definitely an important and I think unappreciated issue right now, and I'm normally all for long form investigations too. But I don't think this piece structured it very well. It started losing me right at the beginning with what felt like an outdated description of technology applied too broadly, and then not actually bothering to cover the very real…
(Post author) The short answer is that I'm quite familiar with those, but I felt the post I'd made was getting alarmingly long already, and I did decide to try and reduce some of the "10k word epics" I'm prone to writing. This probably should have been split into multiple posts, but I struggled to find anything I found relevant to cut. And, yes, figuring out the structure of it was a challenge, because I know a lot o…
Hey, super great post. Light and health is the topic I care most about, so much so that I created the aforementioned Bedtime Bulb product to make it simpler for people to get the right light at night. I also put out a YouTube video series [0] covering the modern history of lighting, although I haven't finished it yet.
We posted as many specs and graphics as we could for Bedtime Bulb on our tech specs page [1].
We're also working on a new Bedtime Bulb v2 that we'll launch in early Q3. More details to share once our patent is submitted, but it will have an improved spectral power distribution, much wider dimmer compatibility, improved reliability, and even better flicker performance. Our understanding of recent research is that there's more to it than blue/green light and flicker, and we'll apply those understandings in the new product as well. If you want to stay informed about that, feel free to reach out or subscribe to our newsletter.
Keep it up!
[0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLboszRf3aO5YjlwkHz67Z...
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suspect that (some types of) plastics are going to be a big contributer to some of these problems. They contain a number of endocrine disrupting chemicals, and we're typing on them, mousing with them, steering our cars with them, walking on them (most carpet is plastic these days), wearing them, eating off them, drinking from them, washing outselves with them ... But yeah, the time-lag is a real problem, and couple…
For the first time in my life, I think I finally see the appeal of wooden keycaps.
Stone, for that extra-clackety tone to my Model M!
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#126Plasmas are incandescent, conveniently killed off by the environmentalists and their energy star bullshit
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
General rule I keep is the more restrained on new tech you can be the better. Basically, I avoid most synthetic, gmo, store bought stuff where I can. That said, I have AC, heat, and will use meds when I need them (even real advanced ones). There’s always risks but my cast iron works great to cook with. No synthetic hormones for me, and limit phone use is allgood.
Do you also avoid animal products? Lotta hormones in those.
Raise my own / join a co-op.
You can get raw milk and any meat from the Amish where I’m at. Amazingly good.
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
(Post author here, huh, it hit HN...) This is not consistent with the studies I've read. It's a "total lumineous flux in the 460-490nm range" concern. The deep reds, up past 600nm, don't seem to have any impact on melatonin, nor do violets below ~420nm - though they can have other impacts on the retina and such. Bright light will, all other things being equal, be worse than dim light, but "dim blue light" is still re…
Ooh the post author! I have a question. When I buy light bulbs they always list the color temperature but not the lumineous flux, what's the relationship? I buy dim bulbs that have a temperature of 2700K for evening applications precisely because of this belief that brightness and color impacts sleep quality, am I right or is it just placebo? It seems to help...
"When I buy light bulbs they always list the color temperature but not the lumineous flux, what's the relationship?"
Hi! LED and LASER module design and manufacturing tech here!
There is a small correlation with LEDs and luminous flux - the ones with higher green peaks (2700K-~4000K CCT) will have a higher luminous flux at full power as green (~552nm) is where the lumen is weighted and those tend to have more output in that converted color range versus the cool white (which have a little less green and a bit more blue.) This really only applies to phosphor-converted LEDs, RGB combo LEDs are narrow-spectrum in emission, and you can't really describe them by luminous flux, rather photon flux or radiant flux per output channel, as the luminous flux will always be highest from the green LED, no matter what, due to the weighting of the lumen in the green wavelengths.
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#129What's the scientific opinion on blue blockers for prescription eyeglasses? There are some claims that suggest the health benefits are over stated. But my optometrist continues to recommend them given my profession and exposure to blue light. Anecdotally, it appears it has helped but not sure if it's related to other factors.
I saw a study which said you can get the same effect by using clear glass and telling people it absorbs the important wavelengths. Also that blue light deprivation leads to depression in animal models. These kinds of things are hard to double blind for obvious reasons, but ruling out psychosomatic causes is really difficult.
Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night
#130Interesting, this correlates to some of my blind friends acquiring non-24 sleeping disorder in the past few years. I wonder if that has anything to do with the banning of classical lightbulbs in the EU...