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LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

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Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#81

Post by mrtweetyhack »

zachruss92 wrote: post #7
000ooo000 wrote: post #5

Andrew Huberman of Huberman Lab podcast discusses this in the first 4-5 episodes of the podcast. The takeaway is: it's late-night bright light, rather than blue light, that has effects on the circadian rhythm. It's an appeal to authority but I think I'll go with the professor of neurobiology and opthalmology on this one.

He also did an interview with a person from the NIMH who personally only uses candle light past dark. It makes sense when you think about it. Also apparently overhead lights are worse- the angle makes a difference.

[dead]

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#83

Post by kelnos »

Syonyk wrote: post #42
api wrote: post #24

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is all the supplementation with melatonin people are doing. Does ingested melatonin still have the same protective effects?

I've not looked into it that much (yet). Short answer, from my view, is that if we've screwed up lighting enough that we need supplements, the easier option is to fix lighting.

I was thinking about this too, and I'm not sure I agree. Last year I replaced the last of the incandescent lighting in my house with LED. Most of the LED blubs I've bought are 2700K, but it sounds like from what your blog post says, they may still have too much blue light in them?

The savings on my utility bill were immediate and more significant than I expected, and the bulbs themselves were not cheap. So I'm a bit hesitant to switch back.

I've already taken melatonin supplements on and off for years with positive results: I've had sleep issues since I was a kid, definitely before I was in front of LED-lit screens all the time, and well before home LED lighting was a thing.

I may be suffering from some sort of sunk-cost fallacy, but especially given that I've always had (probably non-light-related) sleep issues, it feels "simpler" to just leave my lighting as is, and take some melatonin a few hours before bed. Obviously I'd prefer LED lighting that has better spectrum emissions, but as you note elsewhere, that product would be significantly more expensive. I do agree with you that it seems perverse to break ourselves with our technology and rely on supplements to fix it, but I think wholesale going back to incandescent lighting just isn't going to fly from an energy policy perspective. And I don't think burning fossil fuels in our home (kerosene lanterns) is a great idea; that's just trading one health problem for another.

I think at this point our realistic choices are: a) finding a way to make efficient, cheap "white" LEDs that don't blast out blue light, or b) some new yet-to-be-invented technology that has similar power consumption as LEDs, but healthier emission spectra. I just don't see incandescent lighting (or kerosene lanterns) as serious, realistic contenders for the future.

Edit: it seems OLED is actually quite a bit better when it comes to blue light emissions? (https://www.oledworks.com/news/blog/the-hazards-of-blue-ligh...) I wonder what is holding OLED back from consumer lighting. Perhaps cost?

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#84

Post by MrVandemar »

marcell wrote: post #79

There is always a time lag between the introduction of a cool new technology, and the discovery of its negative effects on human health. DDT was invented in the 1940's, and it wasn't until twenty years later that people discovered its negative effects through bioaccumulation. Teflon was invented in the 1930's, and it again took decades to discover its negative effects on human health, apparently under high heat. Ciga…

I suspect that (some types of) plastics are going to be a big contributer to some of these problems. They contain a number of endocrine disrupting chemicals, and we're typing on them, mousing with them, steering our cars with them, walking on them (most carpet is plastic these days), wearing them, eating off them, drinking from them, washing outselves with them ...

But yeah, the time-lag is a real problem, and coupled with lack of regulation with these technologies and novel compounds that are often introduced into our lives with little or no testing. Very much a "better to seek forgiveness than seek permission" scenario, except in an irresponsible and reckless way that's focused on profit, not safety.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#85

Post by unrealp »

Syonyk wrote: post #68
unrealp wrote: post #61

I have tried going back to incandescent for the spectrum part. The main issue I faced was the number of light bulbs required to get sufficient enough lighting. At least the incandescents we get in my area, mostly werent bright enough. The suggestion about low lighting in the article, I recently read that reading in low light is associated with myopia/nearsightedness in children so there is that angle too.

Low lighting... when? My kids are mostly in bed by the time this matters to me, at least in the winter months. And I'd like to think they get plenty of lighting during the day, as we kick them outside for some period of time every day, regardless of weather (bundle up in the winter). We have a well windowed house (just not in the OS sense), so it's rather bright in there - when the sun is up. And I don' think LEDs ma…

I cant find the link sorry. Also what I could find, the results were inconclusive with new research. So probably doesnt matter yes.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#86

Post by textbookrental »

jahsome wrote: post #21
karmaMeansCool wrote: post #15

There are also probably very personal and biological variables involved too that the post doesn't mention. I stare into monitors and phones all day long. Every light in the house is full-blown LED. I can't help but fall asleep at 20:00 in an led lit room watching led TVs, while my led phone drops onto the floor after I've fallen asleep. I've been in an extreme LED environment for over a decade and never have problems…

I've battled the opposite in the form of clinical, anxiety-driven insomnia my whole life. I've found it utterly debilitating at times and have quite literally struggled since birth, long before electronics and LEDs were common. I can confidently say you're so right about the number (and type) of variables. Sleep hygiene as we say in the biz is a very complex and personal issue. I've tried everything under the sun fro…

I've been a terrible sleeper for about a decade. Weeks on end where I am only sleeping a few hours a night. Can't fall asleep, can't stay asleep, just tired all the time. Tried all the sleep hygiene recommendations but made no difference.

Started supplementing with creatine and about a month later had the best sleep of my adult life.

Shortly after switching creatine brands, I noticed my restless legs were back and I couldn't get to sleep. Switched back to the first creatine brand and a couple weeks later and I am sleeping again.

I don't know if the creatine helps me sleep. I started taking it because I heard on a podcast that it can help prevent cognitive decline as I age. I also started breathing through my nose when I try to sleep so maybe that was what made the difference.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#87

Post by bawolff »

ianai wrote: post #31
Syonyk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are. Any sort of "open flame burner" is likely to emit an awful lot of PM 2.5. However, most of the lanterns (think your standard "hurricane lantern" or "cold blast lantern") are quite clean burning. I've been using lanterns for a while now, and I have the equipment to measure PM2.5 and PM10 (post author here, you can find reviews of my lanterns and my particulate sensors elsewhere on my blog). The lanterns are…

How about the fake candles? I went through a period where as soon as I got home and out of the shower I’d go dark. I had a battery powered lamp that I used exclusively. I’d wear an eye mask with something to listen to playing. It definitely helped. I can definitely feel blue light waking me up much more easily than red. (Worked swing shift until midnight at that point.)

Isn't a fake candle just a normal light in a pretty container?

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#88

Post by xattt »

MrVandemar wrote: post #84
marcell wrote: post #79

There is always a time lag between the introduction of a cool new technology, and the discovery of its negative effects on human health. DDT was invented in the 1940's, and it wasn't until twenty years later that people discovered its negative effects through bioaccumulation. Teflon was invented in the 1930's, and it again took decades to discover its negative effects on human health, apparently under high heat. Ciga…

I suspect that (some types of) plastics are going to be a big contributer to some of these problems. They contain a number of endocrine disrupting chemicals, and we're typing on them, mousing with them, steering our cars with them, walking on them (most carpet is plastic these days), wearing them, eating off them, drinking from them, washing outselves with them ... But yeah, the time-lag is a real problem, and couple…

> They contain a number of endocrine disrupting chemicals …

Tangential, but I worry about the oleophobic materials used on touchscreen glass panels.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#89

Post by amluto »

One can buy LEDs (actual LEDs as opposed to light bulbs with LEDs in them) without a blue peak. For example:

https://bridgelux.com/products/thrive

Digikey carries them, and they’re not terribly expensive. They’re a bit less efficient than the normal 90 CRI versions.

One downside: you get to build your own light fixture! But it will be a really nice one. :)

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#90

Post by judge2020 »

marcell wrote: post #79

There is always a time lag between the introduction of a cool new technology, and the discovery of its negative effects on human health. DDT was invented in the 1940's, and it wasn't until twenty years later that people discovered its negative effects through bioaccumulation. Teflon was invented in the 1930's, and it again took decades to discover its negative effects on human health, apparently under high heat. Ciga…

> We don't know scientifically. Expect to find out in two decades, when its too late for you to do anything about it!

The alternative is for humanity to introduce layers of bureaucracy and regulation for all new technology to prevent them from being used until it's been proven to be safe across decades of use. This is both impractical and inefficient (we might focus research on speculative tech nobody ends up caring about, new tech is often prohibitively expensive until it's mass produced, etc).

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