Live data from Hacker News

LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

sevarg.net

21–30 of 316 posts

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#21

There are also probably very personal and biological variables involved too that the post doesn't mention. I stare into monitors and phones all day long. Every light in the house is full-blown LED. I can't help but fall asleep at 20:00 in an led lit room watching led TVs, while my led phone drops onto the floor after I've fallen asleep. I've been in an extreme LED environment for over a decade and never have problems…

I've battled the opposite in the form of clinical, anxiety-driven insomnia my whole life. I've found it utterly debilitating at times and have quite literally struggled since birth, long before electronics and LEDs were common.

I can confidently say you're so right about the number (and type) of variables. Sleep hygiene as we say in the biz is a very complex and personal issue.

I've tried everything under the sun from strict routine, screen avoidance, both abstinence from and ample sex, more reading, less reading, zero caffeine, limited caffeine, ALL THE CAFFEINE, changes to diet, fasting, supplements, and even medication.

There are usually relatively minor, short lived improvements but it's only a matter of time before I'm spending my nights once again staring at the ceiling, mind at full-tilt.

Whenever sleep comes up in conversation, and I mention my struggles, I feel like invariably I'm met with a response along the lines of "you _just_ have to...", and "have you ever tried ...?" followed by some arbitrary rule or herbal remedy.

Since about the the introduction of the first iPad, consensus seems to have formed the root of all sleep evil is screentime.

Sleep (for some) is an incredibly sensitive and personal struggle. Alarmist "mankind is doomed!" make it even harder to understand the greater picture.

It's closely related to diet. There's always some fad trending, and a number of people who find success in choosing a "better" diet almost always have a system they'll fervently claim is The Way.

The science is relatively clear on light though. I just appear to be some form of mutant.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#23
post #9

This is why OLED lights is the future: http://www.ioledlight.com/ and https://www.oledworks.com/

I have been following OLED lights for a while and they seem to have fizzled out from a consumer perspective. Unfortunate as I would love to install them in my house.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#25
post #18
post #13

>find "r9" >no results >find "cri" >no results in post :/. This is definitely an important and I think unappreciated issue right now, and I'm normally all for long form investigations too. But I don't think this piece structured it very well. It started losing me right at the beginning with what felt like an outdated description of technology applied too broadly, and then not actually bothering to cover the very real…

(Post author) The short answer is that I'm quite familiar with those, but I felt the post I'd made was getting alarmingly long already, and I did decide to try and reduce some of the "10k word epics" I'm prone to writing. This probably should have been split into multiple posts, but I struggled to find anything I found relevant to cut. And, yes, figuring out the structure of it was a challenge, because I know a lot o…

Thanks for the reply! I don't want to be overly critical and I agree it's important. And yes trying to keep things briefer matters too and is something I often struggle with. I just don't think the tradeoffs were quite right. The alarmism approach has gotten overdone, because in terms of percentages there are lots of things we just live with that are "killing us" by the measures you use there. I deal a fair amount with things like network/computer security that have long been seen as low priority cost centers, and it's always challenging to be in a "proving a negative" or "black swan" sort of area where the default result is nothing happens. I've found in those contexts it's important to chart a middle course between complacency and exhaustion/defeatism. For a long time I was most worried about getting any attention at all, but I've found over the last few years that it's also easy for people to start to feel so overwhelmed that they just give up and yolo it so to speak. So an approach of "this is real, but we can make real progress and it doesn't have to be perfect and here's how" can be effective. Or even a "here's what to ask for/look for over the next few years".

One bit of luck in this specific case is that we do have some relatively decent, relatively easy numbers. "Demand to know CRI & R9, and look for ones that are 80-100 in both, the higher the better" is doable for non-experts and not that far off together I think.

>But as far as actionable measures... I did put those in there. Incandescents, on dimmers, in evening spaces.

I don't consider that actionable myself frankly. Can be an option for "those who are really worried right now" sure, but I don't think most people are ever going back to this, and indeed even finding incandescents at all is going to become harder and harder. How many people have dimmers installed at all in general? How many know how to? How many will go to the effort, vs changing a light bulb? The energy savings and other advantages of LED-based lighting (particularly smart lighting) are too strong. If you present this as one-or-the-other, I think the vast majority are just going to write this off as the same category as various chemical hazards that don't seem like there is much individuals can do conveniently and is stressful to think about and thus people choose not to think about it.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#28
post #22

I don't understand the graph of Irradiance vs. Wavelength for an ebook vs. print book. It looks like the print book was read in the dark? Help.

It looks at the emitted energy from the screen.

The ebook emits directly, a foot from your face.

The paper book is reflected energy, at a rather higher reflectance and a rather lower energy.

It's amazing how dim a light you can read a paper book in vs an e-ink ereader.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#29

People think I am weird for cranking the Night Shift setting on my mac to the max but it really helps. Sure wish we had better e-ink screens.

It helps, certainly. At least with my experience (post author), it doesn't actually fix the problem.

There are a variety of e-ink HDMI displays out there, though. They're simply "very, very expensive."

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#30
post #18
post #13

>find "r9" >no results >find "cri" >no results in post :/. This is definitely an important and I think unappreciated issue right now, and I'm normally all for long form investigations too. But I don't think this piece structured it very well. It started losing me right at the beginning with what felt like an outdated description of technology applied too broadly, and then not actually bothering to cover the very real…

(Post author) The short answer is that I'm quite familiar with those, but I felt the post I'd made was getting alarmingly long already, and I did decide to try and reduce some of the "10k word epics" I'm prone to writing. This probably should have been split into multiple posts, but I struggled to find anything I found relevant to cut. And, yes, figuring out the structure of it was a challenge, because I know a lot o…

I'm sorry, I love long-form heavily researched write-ups about topics not usually given attention, but you really did the thing that helping to kill mass adoption of critical thinking: you took a complicated topic and sensationalized it with an attention grabbing 'the sky is falling' headline, while burying the nuance in a essay that maybe 1% of the 'clickers' will read.

Stop doing that, please.

Add a 'tl;dr' on top with the 'here is the breakdown -- you should worry about X for these reasons and these are the complications and here are the mitigations and here is the ongoing progress'. Do this in a few sentences that are easy to read and have no jargon or conext-less data. Then follow with the essay.

As is, I applaud the effort, but you have taken on the habits of a degenerating system.

Post reply on HN