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Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#391

Post by ErikVandeWater »

lsy wrote: post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

> While there is certainly much to criticize in these areas, you would think one solution to this issue would be to advance a society in which women are valued equally to men.

Women are valued moreso than men. Men are 10x more likely to die at work, have little to no access to domestic violence shelters, and if war comes, the only people who will be conscripted to potentially die will be men.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#392

Post by petercooper »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #219
warner25 wrote: post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to hav…

That she was prepared to eloquently argue her case and demonstrate how much metacognition she has is a demonstration she'll probably be resilient to a lot of potentially negative influences in life. I'm less interested in the actual arguments than her thinking process and I would be impressed if my kids showed this level of self awareness.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#393

Post by Nadya »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #252
eastbound wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by finding other ways to be valued as human beings. Before absconding boys from harm, maybe we should check twice on their health. They are often forgotten or their difficulties brushed off in studies. How are addictions progressing? Obesity maybe? Why are they all on 9Gag? Let’s check their level of racism and misogyny, it might be a pro…

I think this might be whataboutism. It’s clear to me the original poster was speaking exclusively on the social media aspect and the fact that social media does not have a similar causal effect of mental illness specifically on boys, and so I don’t know how addiction/obesity/etc contribute here. I agree there may be other effects on men, but it seems very clear here that the original poster was talking about social m…

The answer of why is quite obvious to many people but no longer politically acceptable.

There is a large external pressure for studies to show that there are no differences between men and women while there is also demand for studies that show negative outcomes of women in comparison to men. The same problem happens again and again with these studies in that nothing explains the negative outcomes of women. Except one explanation that is instantly discarded for being socially untenable.

The intersectionalist looks at the studies and declares, "It must be something - let's keep looking!" while the sexist takes a look and nods.

Nobody is going to risk their careers or their funding when they can continue being paid to investigate other avenues of explanation. The suffering of people will continue until a more acceptable explanation is found.

And because I don't wish to speak between the lines: There are psychological and emotional differences between men and women. And, from all the humans I've known at least, women tend to give more of a shit about the opinions of other people than men give a shit about the opinions of other people. While the toxic negativity of social media impacts both genders I would honestly be shocked if it didn't impact women more if for no reason other than because they care more.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#394

Post by yamtaddle »

duxup wrote: post #290
stuart78 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my kid's school the target is no phones until 8th grade. It seems many people adhere to the guidance, but that is only based on what we see casually, and we'll see how it looks over the next few years. Some 3rd/4th graders have smart watches which allow comms but not meaningful apps. Not sure it is a great compromise for my family, but interesting to see what results other folks find as we all navigate it.

My local Middle School sends out what feels like weekly (or more) emails about poor choices with phones at school, using them in the bathroom, etc. My kid doesn't have a phone. But we get inundated with these emails and new plans on what to do and so on. I wish they'd just confiscate them and only return them to the parents, or have some sort of phone not allowed without good reason (and revoke it if someone breaks t…

> I wish they'd just confiscate them and only return them to the parents, or have some sort of phone not allowed without good reason (and revoke it if someone breaks the rules), but they seem averse to that kind of thing.

A lot of parents will throw a fit if schools try to take them away or ban them, and, contrary to public perception in some circles, public schools really hate upsetting parents. It's part of why private schools tend to have a lot more success enforcing phone-related rules or restrictions, since they can just tell a family to pound sand if they don't like it (they all have waiting lists anyway, if you're not some huge donor they don't need to give a shit what you think if it's not in-line with their approach and mission)

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#395

Post by twoWhlsGud »

Adraghast wrote: post #210
mcbuilder wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And at 9th grade it's a free for all? Looking back the high school years would have been the worst for my own self esteem, angst, etc. Glad none of it was recorded. :)

Agreed, but what’s the alternative though? Just going full Amish on them until they’re 18? 25? Look at all the Baby Boomers and older Gen X’ers that got on the Internet in the past ten years and instantly had their brains rotted despite decades of life experience. Should there be some kind of emotional intelligence test everyone has to pass to earn their internet license? This is why I think that taking steps to keep…

I also see a lot more older folks walking around outside not staring at their phones. So while having built up habits without phones isn't a cure all for later ills, I think it can help.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#396

Post by igel-hedgehog »

igel-hedgehog wrote: post #386
igel-hedgehog wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MOELLER, Hans-Georg and D’AMBROSIO, Paul J., 2021. You and Your Profile: Identity After Authenticity. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-19600-0: > At the heart of all these issues, from suicides and duels to obsession with family life or professional achievement, is the impossible demand for a person’s inner psychology to become fully congruent with external social expectations. As with any other method of ac…

MOELLER and D'AMBROSIO continue writing: Regime of Sincerity https://wiki.ralfbarkow.ch/view/regime-of-sincerity/view/fac... > As empirical research suggests, both the prevalence of female over male suicide and the prevalence of rural over urban suicide can be related to a continued regime of sincerity in a preindustrialized setting where women, given their subordinated status, suffer even more from role pressures th…

WU, Fei, 2009. Suicide and Justice: A Chinese Perspective. London: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-203-86911-6.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#397

Post by weberer »

throw_pm23 wrote: post #256
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had my 12 year old daughter read the article and after she argued a while I said: Ok, write up your rejoinder and I will post it and see what others think. For context we severely restrict access to social media in our house, but of course they find ways around this as expected (I don't pi-hole because I want them to learn to be hackers) ----------------------------------- *Why I think it’s reasonable for me to hav…

That's a very well-argued response, congratulations. I will only take issue with the last sentence. I don't know the studies, but most of my friends from school who were smoking in moderation back then, ended up as heavy smokers as adults. Those who avoided it completely (partly due to stricter parenting) largely seem to stay smoking-free in later life.

To be fair, you're bringing in the element of physical addiction.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#398

Post by tlear »

verse wrote: post #161
u801e wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all 12 year olds are in a single social group. If one is being left out because they don't have an instagram account, there's another social group they can gravitate to that has other interests besides instagram posts.

> there's another social group they can gravitate to that has other interests besides instagram posts. no, there isn't

Most likely there is in nicer schools. There are social groups around swim competitive clubs, ski race teams, hockey teams, ball hockey, summer long duration live in camps etc.

In many ways hanging out with kids who are banned from social media is hanging out with kids from a pretty exclusive club. This is why unless you homeschool it is REALLY worth it to put your kids into school where parents are from a similar group as you are.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#399

Post by josephg »

caput770 wrote: post #359
lsy wrote: post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

I think part of it is that for every teenage girl spending 5 hours a day on social media, there's a teenage boy spending 5 hours a day playing video games, often with other teenage boys. I'd guess that video games are a more positive way to socialize, because teenagers are cooperating and competing rather than comparing themselves to others on social media.

Yep. People seem to forget the pearl clutching in the 90s over boys playing violent video games.

If the media was to be believed, video games were inevitably going to raise a generation of men ready to shoot up schools at the slightest provocation. Lots of research later, we started finding the men who grew up playing multiplayer video games were more strategic and often made better leaders. The fact that overwatch has guns doesn’t actually matter much in practice. However, the experience of getting a bunch of random people to cooperate is a lifelong skill that carries over into lots of other areas of life.

Most of what I learned about working in teams, I learned from playing world of Warcraft in my early 20s. If you can run a successful raid every week with 40 strangers, working with a team in an office is easy.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#400

Post by beecafe »

josephg wrote: post #399
caput770 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of it is that for every teenage girl spending 5 hours a day on social media, there's a teenage boy spending 5 hours a day playing video games, often with other teenage boys. I'd guess that video games are a more positive way to socialize, because teenagers are cooperating and competing rather than comparing themselves to others on social media.

Yep. People seem to forget the pearl clutching in the 90s over boys playing violent video games. If the media was to be believed, video games were inevitably going to raise a generation of men ready to shoot up schools at the slightest provocation. Lots of research later, we started finding the men who grew up playing multiplayer video games were more strategic and often made better leaders. The fact that overwatch h…

No, we have a generation of men who love shooting up schools and each other.
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